Oral Answers to Questions

WALES

The Secretary of State was asked—

NHS Waiting Times

Andrew Selous: What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of the National Assembly for Wales about progress in reducing NHS waiting times.

Peter Hain: I regularly meet the Assembly First Minister, and the health service in Wales is one of the topics that we frequently discuss.

Andrew Selous: Given that health spending in Wales constitutes a higher proportion of the gross domestic product than it does in either France or Germany, why have waiting lists increased by 80 per cent. in the past five years? Given that one of his own Back Benchers—the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Jones)—said that the NHS is in need of urgent reform, and given that a 69-year-old Swansea man has waited more than three and a half years for a hip operation, will the Secretary of State agree to meet Conservative health spokesmen to discover how Opposition health reforms could benefit the people of Wales?

Peter Hain: There is a convention in the House whereby Ministers agree to receive delegations from Members, but I am not sure that that one would be very productive. It would take us back to the past and to a Conservative record in Wales that was awful. Seventy hospitals closed, more than a third of general and acute beds were lost between 1979 and 1997, and nursing and midwifery training places were cut. However, in Wales we are now moving ahead. We are recruiting more consultants and more nurses, waiting times are coming down and more hospitals are being built. The health service is improving under Labour, just as it was cut under the Tories.

Betty Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, contrary to the gloomy views expressed by the Conservative party as part of a last-minute effort before tomorrow's elections, the facts speak for themselves in my local trust, the North West Wales NHS Trust? Its consultant orthopaedic surgeons are able to offer treatment within six months, and in dermatology 96 per cent. of patients are seen within three months. According to The Sunday Times, it is the top performing trust in Wales, and for the fourth year running one of its hospitals is among the top 40 best performing hospitals in the UK.

Peter Hain: My hon. Friend speaks for Wales, and for north-west Wales in particular, in a way that the Conservatives cannot, because they have no parliamentary representation in Wales. As she accurately points out, things are improving. They have to improve a lot more, but there is more investment, more nurses, more doctors and more provision to ensure that such improvements continue. In particular, waiting times for cardiac surgery, orthopaedic treatment, cataract surgery and angiograms are improving.

Bill Wiggin: It is an insult to the 302,730 people on a waiting list for the Secretary of State time and again to make incorrect claims about my party and our policies. He should know, because the information has been published, that we have promised to spend £68 billion on schools and the NHS in Wales.
	Let us get on to what is happening. Ten per cent. of the population—

Mr. Speaker: Order. The one thing that the hon. Gentleman has got to do is to ask a supplementary question.

Bill Wiggin: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Secretary of State tell the House why The Western Mail reported that at an Assembly Cabinet meeting on 19 January, Ministers secretly discussed the way in which NHS waiting lists in Wales are calculated? The Labour Assembly seems to be more concerned with fiddling the figures than with reducing the actual waiting times that people are suffering. It appears that Assembly Ministers are anxious to present an improved list of waiting time figures to disguise their appalling record on health and to appease their party's MPs, who are already rightly panicking ahead of the next general election. Can the Secretary of State confirm that the Welsh Assembly will not be changing the way in which waiting lists are calculated, in order to fudge the figures?

Peter Hain: Talking of fudging figures, if I heard the hon. Gentleman correctly, he just said that he intends to spend an extra £68 billion on health and education in Wales.

Bill Wiggin: indicated assent.

Peter Hain: He nods his head, but the current entire budget for Wales is £13 billion, which means that he is going to spend some five times as much as that. In the light of that Mickey Mouse figuring, is anybody taking seriously anything that he says about these issues?

Bill Wiggin: I stand corrected—the £68 billion figure applies across the whole of the UK. I rather wish that the Secretary of State was always as helpful to me when I am trying to get answers from him. On waiting times in Wales, perhaps he can explain why the figures for this April show an increase of 8,487 people, compared with March. Of course, they are among the 302,730 people—one in 10 people in Wales—currently on an in-patient or out-patient waiting list.
	There are more people waiting this year than last, and waiting lists have increased by 80 per cent. since 1999.
	Wales has the highest waiting list, not just in the UK, but in the whole of Europe. Despite that, Jane Hutt clearly said that her policies were "having an effect". Is the Secretary of State happy with the effect of the Government's policies, and does he think that Jane Hutt is doing a good job?

Peter Hain: I am very happy with the progress being made in comparison with the dreadful record under the Conservatives. We inherited that legacy. Just look at the figures. There are 4,000 more nurses in Wales since Labour came to power; 300 more whole-time equivalent consultants; waiting times for key procedures are coming down; 10 new hospitals are either being or have already been built; and there are 178 more acute beds. That is all progress, which is resulting in better health provision for Wales. That is why the people of Wales will continue to back Labour and continue to reject the Tories.

Albert Owen: My hon. Friend the Member for Conwy (Mrs. Williams) was right to point to the fact that the North West Wales NHS Trust is the best performing trust in Wales in respect of out-patients and in-patients. However, despite the fact that many nurses train in the locality, the ratio of nurses to beds is one of the lowest because they often move to other parts of Wales and, indeed, to England. Will my right hon. Friend meet the appropriate Welsh Assembly Minister to ensure that local nurses are allowed to remain in the area and work for the local NHS?

Peter Hain: I meet the First Minister regularly and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary meets the Minister for Health and Social Services regularly. It is certainly a matter that we can draw to their attention. My hon. Friend will be aware that more and more nurses are being recruited. He will also be aware of my response to the previous question and know that 250,000 more patients are being seen in the Welsh health service under Labour than under the Tories. That is an indication of the way standards are going up and of how people's needs are being satisfied and their relief of pain met.

Civil Contingencies Bill

Elfyn Llwyd: When he last met the First Minister to discuss amendments to the Civil Contingencies Bill specifically called for by the National Assembly for Wales' Local Government and Public Services Committee; and if he will make a statement.

Don Touhig: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I meet the First Minister and Welsh Assembly Government Ministers regularly to discuss a range of matters, which has included the Civil Contingencies Bill.

Elfyn Llwyd: I acknowledge the Minister's response, but it does not address the question that I tabled. The question was about the information given by the Welsh Assembly to the Minister during the passage of the Civil Contingencies Bill. The Local Government and Public Services Committee requested two specific amendments and they have been dispatched by Westminster. The Minister often refers to a partnership in respect of legislating, but that does not sound like a partnership to me. Frankly, it is rather one-sided.

Don Touhig: I know of the hon. Gentleman's interest in this matter, and on Third Reading he raised a number of important points about the Bill. I can tell him that, personally, as a Minister, I have not received any representations about amendments from the National Assembly's Local Government and Public Services Committee. The Minister for the Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Alexander), has received them and he will reply. I am prevented by time constraints from giving the hon. Gentleman a more detailed response, but if it would help him—I know of his particular interest—I will write to provide him with further information.

Lembit �pik: The Minister will know that 300 Tetra masts are being installed for Welsh police communications. Is he aware that they are a cause of local concern in communities such as Llanidloes, where local people simply do not feel consulted? They are angry that council officials are threatening to use the Government's emergency powers legislation to force mast installations, regardless of local feeling. Are those officials allowed to do that; and, if so, what rights do local citizens have to stop unwelcome mast installations?

Don Touhig: I was not aware of the issue until the hon. Gentleman just raised it as a matter of concern in his constituency. I will look further into the matterI understand that he has spoken about his concerns to my officials this morningand I will write to him about it.

Drug Rehabilitation

Ann Clwyd: What discussions he has had with the First Minister of the National Assembly for Wales on the provision of local drug rehabilitation services in (a) the Cynon Valley and (b) Wales.

Don Touhig: I regularly meet the National Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Minister and tackling substance misuse in the south Wales valley communities is a subject that we frequently discuss.

Ann Clwyd: I recognise the Government's record level of commitment to funding for this problem, but may I point out that in the Cynon Valley there is a long waiting list for rehabilitation facilities, and urge my hon. Friend to press upon the First Minister the importance of increasing rehabilitation facilities for those who are seeking treatment for that problem?

Don Touhig: Access to treatment is a priority, which is why 2.5 million of funding has been provided through community safety partnerships in Wales in order to target the availability of treatment services. I am aware that there have been a large number of applications for treatment in my hon. Friend's constituency. A number have been from women who are pregnant, so they cannot receive treatment at that time, which has created a backlog. As I say, I am aware of my hon. Friend's concern and I will bring it to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.

Chris Bryant: It is good to see my hon. Friend the Minister in fine health, which just goes to show that the NHS in Wales is doing a very fine job at present. However, has he had an opportunity to visit the new mental health unit at the Royal Glamorgan hospital, which serves both the Cynon valley and the Rhondda, or the mental health unit at

Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not relevant to the question.

Wayne David: My hon. Friend the Minister will be well aware that the Rhondda Cynon Taf local authority has a poor record in supporting drug rehabilitation initiatives, in the Cynon valley and the locality generally. However, is he aware of the Kaleidoscope project in Newport? It is an innovative project, based on respect for individuals, and it ensures that treatment is given within one week, if possible.

Don Touhig: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for saving me from the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) that I am aware of the matter that he raises, and that the Rhondda Cynon Taf community safety partnership has received more than 600,000 for its substance misuse action plan. I am also aware of the Kaleidoscope project, which I visited with the Welsh Assembly's Minister for Social Justice and Regeneration. I was very impressed with the work of the project, which provides a service for a range of different people. The project is known nationally and internationally for its pioneering community-based drugs treatment programmes. I commend it to other areas for examination, as it is a pioneering project that is breaking barriers and pushing forward the agenda involved in tackling the problem of drug misuse.

Miners' Compensation

Huw Irranca-Davies: What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in respect of the deduction of contingency fees from miners' compensation awards.

Don Touhig: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with colleagues at the Department of Trade and Industry on coal health compensation matters, and I also attend the national monitoring group chaired by my colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths).

Huw Irranca-Davies: Will my hon. Friend convey my thanks to his counterparts in the DTI for their efforts in working with the Law Society to put pressure on those lawyers who, scandalously, have sought to deduct contingency fees from the compensation rightfully paid to miners, their widows and their families? However, does he share my dismaynot to say disgustthat other lawyers in south Wales continue to deduct contingency fees or part payments from money that rightfully should go to miners and their families?

Don Touhig: Yes, I most certainly share that disgust. Claims handlers and others who take a slice of compensation meant for miners and their widows are, in my view, nothing but parasites preying on the fears of elderly and vulnerable people. My message to them is simple. It is, Give the money back. It does not belong to you; it belongs to the miners.

Roger Williams: Yesterday, I was contacted by my constituent Mr. Davies from Abercraf, who is conducting a claim on behalf of his late father. He is furious about the service that he has received from his solicitor, who has taken a long time to settle the claim, and has also submitted copies of wills and probates that refer to a claim being made by another family. Solicitors involved in such matters receive great fees from the DTI: when will those fees be deducted to reflect the poor service that claimants receive, and the stress that is caused to them when they do not get the money that they are due?

Don Touhig: On the whole, most solicitors handling miners' compensation claims have acted very well and have sought to process the claims as speedily as possible. However, I am aware that some solicitors are not in that category and that they have caused enormous grief, to my constituents and to those of other hon. Members. I shall bring the details of this particular case to the attention of the Law Society, as I have done on a number of occasions previously, and I shall ask it to investigate the problems that the hon. Gentleman's constituent is having with that firm of solicitors.

Denzil Davies: Given that the activities of the claim handlers seem to generate claims and therefore more work for solicitors, would it not be fairer if their fees were paid out of the solicitors' pockets, and not by the unfortunate claimants?

Don Touhig: I have sympathy with that view. Indeed, I have written to the Law Society on behalf of a couple of my constituents who have paid 5,000 to claims handlers. When I wrote to the solicitors handling the claims, I was told that they dealt merely with the process of the claim and that my constituents had signed an agreement to pay that money to the claims handlers.
	I have asked the Law Society to investigate the matter because one part of the agreement that my constituents had to sign states that the payment is needed to meet any legal or medical fees. In fact, claimants have to pay no such fees, as the Government are meeting them all. The solicitors know that, and they should act appropriately. I have every sympathy for the point made by my right hon. Friend. Solicitors should be encouraged to help get the money back.

Adam Price: In the Minister's discussions with the Department of Trade and Industry, did he also ask why it is financing the miners' compensation scheme from the surpluses it receives from the miners' pension fund? As the Minister himself said, Give the money back. It doesn't belong to you; it belongs to the miners.

Don Touhig: Plaid Cymru is taking an interest in miners? There must be an election on. The hon. Gentleman has raised this issue recently and gained much publicity as a result. He has created alarm and concern among miners and their widows, who think that their pension fund is at risk because of the issues he has raised. He has not discovered anything new: the issue that he raises was made public by my right hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Mrs. Liddell) on 8 December 1999. The hon. Gentleman alluded to the guarantee. At the moment, the miners' pension scheme is in deficit and the Government are putting in millions of pounds to overcome that deficit. If he asks any miner in Wales, they will tell him that the guarantee of their pension security is a godsend. They welcome it, and they know that it guarantees that their pensions are safe.

NHS Funding

Desmond Swayne: What discussions he has had with the National Assembly for Wales about funding for the NHS in Wales.

Peter Hain: I regularly meet the Assembly First Minister and the health service in Wales is one of the topics that we frequently discuss.

Desmond Swayne: The Audit Commission reported in April that the NHS in Wales was unsustainable, out of balance, unable to meet the needs of the future, and applying the wrong remedies in the wrong place for the wrong reasons. What can it possibly have meant?

Peter Hain: The Audit Commission made some recommendations that the Welsh Assembly and the Minister for Health and Social Services are now implementing. It also recognised that great progress has been made by the health service in Wales, some of which I identified earlier. The hon. Gentleman will also appreciate, as a Conservative Member, that the people of Wales know that they face a choice between cuts, privatisation and charges under the Conservatives, or increased investment, more provision, more nurses, more doctors and a better health service under Labour.

Julie Morgan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the funding for NHS breast cancer surgery will spread much further because of a pioneering new technique developed by the University of Wales College of Medicine, in my constituency, that reduces the need for drastic and invasive surgery when cancer has spread under the arms into the lymph nodes? Will he join me in congratulating the staff involved on a tremendous achievement, which means that Wales now leads the field in that area?

Peter Hain: I am delighted to join my hon. Friend in congratulating the staff of the university on their fantastic, innovative and pioneering research and their contribution to tackling a serious problem that has affected far too many women over the decades. We now have the opportunity to introduce a proper, preventive strategy to provide the protection to which women are entitled.

Mr. Speaker: I call Mr. Bellingham.

Henry Bellingham: rose

Mr. Speaker: I am sorry, I have made a mistake. I call Mr. Wiggin.

Bill Wiggin: I sympathise, Mr. Speaker, and so should the Secretary of State. His hearing is not up to much because he did not hear the points that I made about spending. He said that great progress had been made, but can he explain why hospital activity has increased by only 6 per cent., the backlog of maintenance on NHS buildings in Wales has increased by 147 million, and the total repair bill now stands at 465 million? There is a chronic shortage of consultants, with the British Medical Association estimating that 150 posts are unfilled. What has Labour done with the money? Could it have gone on the doubling in the number of civil servants in Jane Hutt's Department, or the 96 administrative bodies that she has set up since 1999? Labour's policy of taxing and spending and failing is letting Wales down.

Peter Hain: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his enthusiasm for coming back for second helpings, even if the recipe was the same. He ignores the fact that the health service in Wales is now seeing 250,000 more patientsa quarter of a million moreand that is where the money is going. It is going into recruiting 4,000 more nurses, 300 more whole-time equivalent consultants and building more hospitals, compared with the 70 closed under the Conservatives. That is where Labour's investment in health is going, compared with the cuts, cuts and cuts that we had under the Tories.

Small Businesses (Tax)

Henry Bellingham: What recent representations he has received from small business organisations in Wales on the subject of the tax treatment for small incorporated companies.

Peter Hain: I have regular meetings with small business organisations. The Government and the Assembly have created an extremely supportive environment for small businesses to prosper in Wales.

Henry Bellingham: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of small companies in Wales went to substantial expense to incorporate as a result of tax incentives brought in by the Budget two years ago? Those excellent initiatives, which were widely welcomed by small business groups in Wales, were removed in this year's Budget. How does the right hon. Gentleman explain that U-turn, which has angered so many small businesses in Wales?

Peter Hain: As the hon. Gentleman knows, things are not quite as he suggested. As he also knows, small businesses in Wales are doing much, much better than ever before. The Royal Bank of Scotland reports that the economy will grow by 3 per cent. and that Welsh business activity grew for the 13th consecutive month to April 2004. A recent CBI survey also showed that business confidence in Wales stands at its highest since 1995, and the latest quarterly business survey from NatWest reports that 68 per cent. of Welsh small businesses noted significant improvements in their sales in the past year. That is the most positive response for a long timethanks to Labour's excellent policies.

Tax Credits

John Smith: What discussions he has had with his Cabinet colleagues on the take-up of tax credits in (a) Wales and (b) Vale of Glamorgan.

Martyn Jones: What discussions he has had with his Cabinet colleagues concerning the take-up of tax credits in Wales.

Peter Hain: Two hundred and forty-five thousand families in Wales are receiving tax credits, including almost 228,000 families with about 400,000 children.

John Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that for the first time in a generation not a single family in my Vale of Glamorgan constituency would be better off out of work and dependent on benefits? Will he give me an assurance that we never return to the absurd situation where benefits become a perverse incentive for people not to work?

Peter Hain: I certainly will give my hon. Friend that assurance, provided of course that the people continue to vote for Labour in election after election. Instead of the billions of pounds being wasted by the Tories to keep people on the dole, where there is no hope and no future, we have invested to help people who want to work and to make work pay through the working tax credit and the child tax credit. That is benefiting hundreds and thousands of people right across Wales.

Martyn Jones: What effect has that encouraging take-up of tax credits had on our desire to eliminate child poverty in Wales?

Peter Hain: It has had a significant impact, because it has occurred alongside record increases in child benefits. We are committed to eliminating child poverty right across Wales. We have made massive strides in that direction, again with policies that would be cut under the Tories in their programme of cuts and cuts and cuts, driving the people of Wales and the children of Wales back into the misery of the 1980s and the early 1990s.

Antisocial Behaviour

Alan Howarth: What discussions he has had with (a) Cabinet colleagues and (b) National Assembly for Wales Ministers concerning measures to tackle antisocial behaviour in Wales.

Don Touhig: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I regularly meet Cabinet colleagues and Assembly Ministers to discuss matters affecting Wales.
	In March this year the police were given greater scope for combating antisocial behaviour when the third set of new powers contained in the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 came into force. [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. The House must allow the right hon. Member for Newport, East (Alan Howarth) to put his supplementary question.

Alan Howarth: Has my hon. Friend noted that reports of antisocial behaviour and disorder in Newport have fallen by 25 per cent. over the last year? Will he congratulate Gwent police and Labour-led Newport city council on working in increasingly effective partnership? Has he also noted that absolutely no ideas of any interest or use on the matter of antisocial behaviour have been put forward by any of the other political parties?

Don Touhig: The Government are cracking down on those who make life a misery for hard-working families. Those families expect us to do something about that situation and to act against those who commit the quality-of-life crimes of intimidation, petty vandalism, yobbery and so on. I am delighted about the real progress that has been made in Newport through the partnership between the Gwent police and the Labour-run Newport council, which after the election tomorrow will still be a Labour-run council.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked

Engagements

Ken Purchase: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 9June.

John Prescott: I have been asked to reply.
	As the House will know, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is attending the G8 summit in Georgia and will then go on to attend the state funeral of the former President of the United States, Ronald Reagan.
	I take this opportunity to express our deep sadness at the death of my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South, Jim Marshall. He was a popular figure in Parliament and locally, and a great advocate for his constituency. He will be sadly missed.

Ken Purchase: All of us, both here and in Jim's former constituency, would wish to echo those very fine words.
	Does my right hon. Friend recognise the good sense and decency of the people in my borough of Wolverhampton, where not one single person has been persuaded to stand as a British National party nationalist, fascist candidate in tomorrow's city council elections? In this special week when we remember the Normandy landings, which became a real turning point in the fight against racism and fascism, will my right hon. Friend implore and demand of the voters that tomorrow they follow the example of Wolverhampton and make our country a racist-BNP-free zone?

John Prescott: I am sure that the House will agree with much of what my hon. Friend says. The people of his city have shown good sense in many ways, not least in sending him here as their Member of Parliament.
	My hon. Friend is right, too, to draw the House's attention to the dignified ceremonies that took place at the weekend to mark the courage and sacrifice of those involved in the Normandy landings 60 years ago. It is because of their bravery and sacrifice that we have the right to vote in the elections that are taking place tomorrow. I am sure that the House will want to urge all those taking part to turn out and to maximise the vote.

Michael Ancram: I join the Deputy Prime Minister in his tribute to the late Jim Marshall. I believe that we will all miss him in the House.
	I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister will also wish to join me in paying tribute to the late Ronald Reagan, a great President who challenged the march of communism and won. After all, how can he and I not pay tribute to a man who was known as the great communicator?
	Does the Deputy Prime Minister now regret ignoring the advice of the Electoral Commission and going ahead with postal voting in four regions?

John Prescott: The right hon. and learned Gentleman made clear his judgment about President Reagan in the debate on foreign affairs on Monday. For my part, whatever people said about President Reagan at the beginning of his regime, I remember that he contributed to reducing weapons of mass destruction, which assisted in world peace today. [Interruption.] Well, people can make judgments, but I give my judgment as best I can. I remember the many cynical comments that were made about that man, but he did contribute to reducing the cold war. [Interruption.] I can only give the House my view and live with whatever people think about it.
	As for all-postal ballots, let me make it clear to the House that the evidence is that the number of people participating in the elections is significantly higher than it has been. It must be the wish of everyone in the House that as many people as possible vote in elections. The returning officers are positive about the elections and say that they are going well. By last night, turnout had already increased by 6.8 per cent. in the north-east, by 6.1 per cent. in the north-west, by 8.6 per cent. in Yorkshire and Humber, and by 7.3 per cent. in the east midlands.
	That is nearly an extra 1 million people participating in the vote. That must be a welcome factor, and I think that my judgment in asking for the four areas to be considered as all-postal ballot areas was right.

Michael Ancram: The Deputy Prime Minister's complacency is breathtaking. Where has he been for the past few weeks? Thousands of electors have had postal votes sent back because they have failed to complete them properly, one council is having to operate three emergency polling stations because thousands of voters have not received their forms in time, and voters in another area are being invited to go to the town hall. One in seven voters in the four regions said that they had not received their ballot papers by last weekend. On top of that, today we hear allegations that substantial numbers of voters have been intimidated, and that one employer told his staff that he would sack them all if they refused to support Labour. Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand the chaos that he is causing, and the worry and upset to all the voters who think that he is effectively depriving them of their votes?

John Prescott: A number of those allegations were made in 2003. The Electoral Commission looked into them to see whether there were any examples of bad practice or fraud, and after the investigation into the 100 pilot areas in 2003 it said that there was no reason to believe the pilot schemes had
	resulted in an increase in the incidence of electoral offences.
	That was the Electoral Commission's judgment then, and it will conduct another review in the present pilot areas. Most of what we have heard is allegations. Let the proper investigation take place, and the House will have a chance to make a proper judgment.
	Let us be clear: more than 1 million more people have participated in the elections already, and if we get the same rate of return that we had in 2003, that figure could become 2 million. I hope that many more people will vote by the end of the elections on Thursday night. That should be welcomed. We shall conduct a review, and any electoral mispractice or fraud should be harshly dealt with. Indeed, Members will recall that in the past few weeks we read in the papers that in a postal ballotalthough not in an all-postal ballot areaa Conservative councillor was jailed for forging ballot papers.

Michael Ancram: The Deputy Prime Minister's complacency will send its own signal to many people in the country. He talks again about turnout, but this is not just about turnout; it is about the integrity of the system, confidence, trust and lack of corruption. Above all, it is about people being able to exercise their vote. The chaos of the past few weeks has been bad enough, yet the right hon. Gentleman still appears hellbent on holding all-postal ballots in his three regional referendums this autumn. Will he now abandon those plans, and will the Labour party stop playing fast and loose with democracy and restore to people the right to vote at the ballot box?

John Prescott: I do not know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman recalls this, but there was no dispute between us that postal ballots and all-postal ballots should be encouraged. All parties have supported that principle; the only dispute is whether the allegations are correct. The pilot schemes will be reviewed, and the House will have proper time to consider a proper judgment made by the Electoral Commission. That is right, but let us celebrate the fact that a million more people will participateindeed, already have participatedin the elections; the final figure may be greater than that. That should be a matter for celebration. It is not, as the leader of the Liberal party has said, a democratic disgrace.

Gordon Prentice: Do we need more single-sex Muslim schools?

John Prescott: My hon. Friend will know that a number of the local education authorities, which have the right to make that choice, have decided that there will be some of those schools[Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) reminds me, there are five. It is for the local education authorities to make such decisions, and we should leave it to them.

Menzies Campbell: May I associate myself and my right hon. and hon. Friends with the tributes paid to Jim Marshall, a Member who was much respected in all parts of the House? Of President Reagan, may I say that whatever one's differences with him may have been, he will undoubtedly take his place as one of the most notable Presidents in American history?
	However, may I ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether he agrees that the proposals at the G8 summit on improved debt relief for poverty-stricken African countries should stand alone and not be dependent on the writing off of Iraqi debt? Will the Prime Minister take that position in Georgia?

John Prescott: Yes, and they do stand alone.

Menzies Campbell: That was the shortest and, perhaps, the most acceptable answer that the Deputy Prime Minister has ever given. I doubt that I shall be so lucky the second time around.
	On Iraq, given that the new United Nations resolution mentions neither weapons of mass destruction nor the Iraq survey group at all, and in view of the Prime Minister's statement yesterday that Saddam Hussein had what he described as strategic intent to develop weapons of mass destruction, are we now to understand that the Government accept that there were no actual weapons of mass destruction and that none are likely to be found, or, in the words of Dr. David Kay, are the Government still being delusional?

John Prescott: I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows that we are all waiting for the final report on those matters. [Interruption.] I thought that we set up reports to find out facts so that we can then debate them. It is right for me to say that we should await the report. It is a pity that he has not really congratulated the United Nations on arriving at its unanimous agreement last night. Everyone in the House has been calling for that, so I should have thought that we should all welcome it, rather than giving out the party political stuff that we heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), which was a disgrace. Given that such a fundamental decision has been made about Iraq, we should all welcome the fact that the UN is now playing a major part in finding a solution, which our Prime Minister has tried to put in place. A council is being formed and there will be elections in June. I have listened to many debates in the Chamber on Iraq, so is it not time for us to celebrate the fact that the UN is involved and we now have a satisfactory solution for not only coalition forces, but the Iraqi authorities, which very much welcome it?

Gwyn Prosser: Labour's tonnage tax has given a massive boost to the British Merchant Navy and has been of huge benefit to British shipping. Does the Deputy Prime Minister share my dissatisfaction that that boost and expansion has not been matched by an increase in jobs for British seafarers and has not provided the training places that were promised?

John Prescott: I am well aware of the point that my hon. Friend makes. He welcomes the fact that there has been more than a three-times increase in tonnage due to the change to the taxation arrangement to which the Chancellor agreed a few years ago. That has meant that this island nation now has its island fleet back again, which is welcome. However, the system was different from other tax arrangements because it included the condition that there had to be training for officers and crews. There has indeed been extra training for them, but I was disappointed that my union at the time, the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, did not take up the training arrangements for all British crew members aboard the ships. In fact, its own training arrangement was set up, which has meant that fewer British seafarers have been involved on the ships. However, we should welcome the fact that the decline of the British merchant fleet that had gone on for decades has been reversed due to another of the Government's successful policies.

Michael Ancram: In February, the Party of European Socialists issued a political declaration for Europe. Does the Deputy Prime Minister support it?

John Prescott: As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, the document was released in February. A great deal of fuss was made that it had not been given a public release, but it was released in February. It is a statement by the socialist parties in Europe on what they feel that the effects of globalisation will be on European policies. They made judgments on the economy, welfare and so on. I note that their judgment on the economy is close to the Maastricht policy introduced by the right hon. and learned Gentleman's previous Administration.

Michael Ancram: Once again, the Deputy Prime Minister has not answered the question. The document, which was signed by the Minister for Europe in that capacity, calls for new European taxes, a common immigration policy, a single welfare system and the surrender of Britain's seat on the United Nations Security Council. Does that represent Government policy: yes or no?

John Prescott: The right hon. and learned Gentleman does not give a proper interpretation of what was said or, indeed, meant. It is not Government policy, either.

Michael Ancram: That is quite extraordinary. We have a document, which is signed by the Minister for Europe in that capacity, not any other. I am looking at his signature: Denis MacShane MP, Minister for Europe. Does he speak for Europe on behalf of the Government or is he out of line? In the latter case, why is he still Minister for Europe? Is not the document Labour's real policy agenda for Europe? Is that not why the Prime Minister has not made a single speech on Europe during the campaign and has, indeed, been the invisible man of the campaign? Is it not now clear that the only way to put Britain first in Europe is to vote Conservative tomorrow?

John Prescott: It may give a lot of heart to the Tory Opposition to pick out a document that we have said does not represent Government policy, but that is all to do with their fear of the United Kingdom Independence party position on withdrawing from the European Union. Why have they suddenly focused so much attention on European policy? It is because their polls tell them that people will not vote Tory but UKIP. That is why it is being said that the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) is not leading his party properly or setting out a proper position on Europe.
	Even Conservative Members are beginning to dispute that position. A Tory peer, Lord Willoughbya proper Tory, and like the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) a proper Lordbranded his party's renegotiation policy as absurd. He said:
	Expecting to renegotiate the EU treaties on our terms is like going to MacDonald's and ordering Lobster Thermidor.
	As he continued:
	It would be nice to have it, but it is not on the menu.
	I do not know what it is about seafood and politics, but I could not have put it better myself.

Ivan Henderson: My question follows on from that of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Prosser). When my right hon. Friend attended the ceremony for the launch of the new Queen Mary, he was right to say that it was a significant day for the revival of the red ensign. However, does he share my concern and that of my constituent who wrote to me to say that he contacted Cunard asking for a job as a British rating on its ships, but was told that it is not employing British ratings? Will my right hon. Friend personally intervene with the companies and the British Chamber of Shipping to ask them to honour their position on the tonnage tax and employ British ratings on their ships?

John Prescott: I must tell my hon. Friend that it is simply not true that the companies are not employing British ratings. When I attended the Queen Mary II launch, I talked to several of them. I also talked to them on the Queen Elizabeth. The companies employ British ratings and I do not know why they say that they do not. My hon. Friend has a deep interest in the subject and I shall take up the matter that he raises but I emphasise that the companies are employing British ratings.

Desmond Swayne: In 1999, the Prime Minister promised that, by 2001, everyone would have access to a national health service dentist. It has now become impossible to register with a national health service dentist in the New Forest. Those who were registered increasingly find themselves deregistered. When will the Government's policies stop making matters worse?

John Prescott: I am well aware of the problem that the hon. Gentleman mentions because I have experienced it. My dentist declared that he was going private and I declared that I could not stay with him. Many of our constituents have faced that problem. As the hon. Gentleman said, each one of us has been confronted with it. However, it is a bit much for him to get up and speak about it when he belonged to the previous Administration, who closed down the dental schools for training dentists, cut back on all such services and believed in a private health serviceConservative Front-Bench Members have made it clear that they want to dismantle the national health service.
	Let me make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that the number of national health dentists has gone up by 10 per cent. since 1997. There are 36 more consultants than there were in 1997 and the medical school intake has increased by 60 per cent.[Interruption.] Well, it does take a little bit of time to train dentists. If the Conservative had not closed the dental schools down in 1993, we would not have the problem that we have today.

Michael Connarty: The Deputy Prime Minister might know that, in a singular act of compassion, this Labour Government introduced an ex gratia payment scheme for those people in the haemophilia community who have contracted hepatitis C. Sadly, however, it was decided not to include in that scheme the families of the 232 people who have died from hepatitis C. Will the Deputy Prime Minister get together with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health to see whether we can find the money in this budgetary year to give the families of those 232 people ex gratia payments in line with those being given to the rest of the haemophilia community?

John Prescott: To be honest, I do not know the exact details of the point made by my hon. Friend, but I can give him a promise that I will have a talk, as he suggests. The Chancellor is considering all these expenditures, and I do not know exactly what is being said or done, but one thing that I can promise is that a lot more money is being put into the areas that my hon. Friend is talking about. He has asked a specific question, however, and I shall have a look at this and write to him about it.

John Maples: I join the Deputy Prime Minister in welcoming yesterday's unanimous United Nations Security Council resolution on Iraq, but I am sure that he would agree that much more needs to be done to rebuild the unity and cohesion of the transatlantic alliance. Will he tell us what specific issues the Prime Minister will try to persuade his European counterparts to rebuild that unity around?

John Prescott: To be honest, I am sure that that will be one of the questions that the Prime Minister will address when he appears before the House on Monday. He will make a statement and that is one of the matters that he can deal with[Interruption.] Yes, I may well be the Deputy Prime Minister, but I want to be honest with the House and I think that hon. Members would want to hear it from the Prime Minister himself, as he makes these decisions. I try to put these answers as clearly as I can, and I think that honesty is important in politics.
	I remember that, when the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maples) was the vice-chairman of the Tory party, he produced the Maples report back in 1994. That was 10 years ago, and he gave an opinion about the Tory party at that time. In it, he said that people thought that what the Tories were saying was
	completely at odds with their experience, which led them to conclude
	that the Tories were out of touch, lying, stupid and didn't care. Is that still his view?

Meg Munn: In Sheffield over the last four years there has been a fall of more than 16 per cent. in deaths among those under the age of 75, including a fall of more than 23 per cent. in deaths from circulatory disease. Does this not show that Labour's investment in the health service is not only changing people's lives but saving hundreds and thousands of lives across the country? Are these not the kind of statistics that the Opposition would rather we did not talk about?

John Prescott: One of the most pleasing aspects of the amount of resources going into the health service is the changes that are taking place. They take some time, however. The Black report on health showed some time ago that the differential in death and mortality rates between the north and the south was unacceptable. We are trying to correct that by putting greater resources into those areas, and I am pleased to hear that that has happened in Sheffield. There is also evidence of it happening in Hull, and I am sure that it is happening elsewhere.
	The thing that must be worrying most of our constituents, however, and which we should particularly bear in mind this week, is the announcement made by the shadow Chancellor that he envisaged the national health service vanishing in the next five years. That shows the difference between us, and the choice that we have to make. When the Conservatives say that they are going to do that, it will make the differentials in mortality rates and health between the north and south worse. That shows the considered indifference of the Tory Opposition.

Henry Bellingham: Will the Deputy Prime Minister find time today to pay tribute to the National Neighbourhood Watch Association, which is the UK's largest voluntary movement and is doing first-class work in his constituency and mine? Is he aware, however, that it faces imminent closure, because the Home Office is preventing it from signing a five-year commercial sponsorship agreement? That will be a disaster for tens of thousands of volunteers. Will he consider the issue very carefully? What does he have against this organisation, which prospered under the Tories, just as it appears his own NHS dentist prospered under the Tories?

John Prescott: First, everybody in the House will agree that the neighbourhood watch has been a very successful operation. It involves local decision making and involvement, and it has been good in helping to reduce crime. Alongside that, of course, as the hon. Gentleman will well recognise, there is now a record number of police in Norfolk1,500 officers in December 2003. While the neighbourhood watch is very important, so is the number of police, which was reduced under the previous Administration but has been increased by 1,500 officers. In Norfolk alone there are 70 more than in 1997, as well as 34 community support officers, which is an improvement in those programmes. We have seen a reduction in the crime statistics, and that is largely due to the Government's policy in increasing police and, at the same time, the good work of local initiatives in neighbourhood watch.

Jim Sheridan: I am sure that my right hon. Friend shares my concern that many of our indigenous industries are now the victim of employers exploiting cheap labour markets abroad. Just yesterday, an established factory in my constituency, Sara Lee, announced 162 redundancies. What measures are in place to address that situation and, in particular, the situation that affects communities such as a deprived area in my constituency, Port Glasgow, which is suffering from a great many job losses as we speak?

John Prescott: I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. The first point for me to make is that this Government have been very successful in increasing the number of jobs in Scotland, Wales and England. There are well over 2 million more jobsa rate that has been considerably increased and something to be welcomed by all that is largely due to the stability in the economy.
	I must also say that there are people who attempt to organise, and I saw them on my visit to Glasgow. The jobcentres themselves are putting about 4,700 people in work every day, so they are quite successful in that. I was impressed not only by the new deal, which has helped about 100,000 people back into work in Scotland, but by a group in Scotland, which started 28 years ago, so not under this Administration, and which should be given some considerationthe Wise Group. It has had quite a lot of money and has been getting people back to work very successfully for 28 years. I noticed also that there was a tremendous amount of money going into it from the European Communityvital funding of about 3 million in 2003. That reminds us when people are talking about these European elections that an awful lot of our jobs and training money are related to Europe. That is an important factor when the Opposition are really advocating that we should withdraw from Europe, which would have unemployment consequences.

John Greenway: If the people of Yorkshire and Humber vote no in the regional assembly referendum in the autumn, can we keep our two-tier local government in North Yorkshire?

John Prescott: We have made it absolutely clear that if the people vote against any changes in the regional referendum, none of the local government organisation changes, as recommended in the referendum, will take place. They can say yes or no; if they say no, there will be no change and things will stay exactly as they are. However, I would ask the hon. Gentleman to talk to the Leader of the Opposition, who has made it clear that even if the vote is successful, he might not necessarily take any notice of it. That is hardly a democratic decision, but it is what I can expect from the Tory Opposition. They should keep working on their leader and at least get some honesty into the politics.

Laura Moffatt: What would my right hon. Friend say to constituents in Crawley who face changes to their emergency services? Despite unprecedented spending on health locally, senior doctors are recommending that those services should change. Will he ensure that I get access at the highest level to discuss this matter?

John Prescott: I understand my hon. Friend's concern and assure her that we are indeed taking this matter very seriously, as is the case with those at local level. I know that the Secretary of State for Health has been in touch with her, and he assures me that he will be very happy to meet her to discuss the matter on any occasion she chooses. He is available to do so. My final point to Members and voters in their constituencies, and the advice I would give them, is vote Labour.

James Paice: Now that the Deputy Prime Minister proposes to allow the building of 18,000 new houses on green fields in Abington in my constituency, and has already overruled the local authority by allowing Travellers to develop greenfield sites in open country, is it any surprise that the local Labour party is so embarrassed by his actions that tomorrow it is not even contesting seats that it currently holds?

John Prescott: On the factual point, I must tell the hon. Gentleman that in the three northern areas alone, 90-odd per cent. of Labour councillors have been nominated and are fighting these elections, compared with 70-odd per cent. for the Tories.
	With regard to housing, we are committed to providing housing for people. Particularly down in the south-east, it has been denied to them for too long, either because it is too expensive or because we have not been able to build sufficient amounts. I have announced to the House a tremendous increase in such programmes, and we will continue to meet the needs of people, so that they are not told, Go north, because there is no house here, and they can have a house near their parents and near where they have been brought up.
	As for the planning issue, I note the hon. Gentleman's point, but I give him the same answer that everyone gives from this Dispatch Box, from whatever Government. As I am one of the Planning Ministers, I cannot comment on the issue, as I might be making a decision at the end of the day. That is my obligation and my responsibility, and I will face up to it.

Darfur

Hilary Benn: With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the humanitarian emergency in Darfur.
	I returned this morning from a visit to Sudan, where I saw at first hand the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in Darfur, western Sudan. This is the most serious humanitarian emergency in the world today. The UN estimates that more than 1 million people have had to flee their homes and that a further 130,000 refugees have crossed into eastern Chad. I visited the Kalma camp in south Darfur and the el-Meshtel and Abu Shouk camps in north Darfur, where tens of thousands of people are facing a precarious existence. I spoke to men and women whose homes have been destroyed, villages burned, and whose communities have been the victims of killings, looting and rape.
	The humanitarian needs are enormous. Traditionally, Darfur has a hungry season between May and September, during the rains and before the harvest. Because of the conflict, there will be no harvest this year. Added to the long years of drought, communities are unable to cope. The rains have already started in Darfur. They will bring flash floods, make roads impassable, increase the risk of disease and render the delivery of assistance more difficult.
	This is a severe crisis, which will last well into next year. Dealing with it will require action by everyone, including the Government of Sudan. The changes made to visas and travel permits for UN and other relief agency staff are now having an effect. Yesterday, the Government gave me a firm commitment that they would fast-track both the delivery of assistance, so that relief agencies can bring in food, medicine, vehicles and other supplies quickly, and the registration of new relief agencies that want to come and help. I will maintain a close interest in the implementation of these arrangements.
	The number of humanitarian agencies on the ground is limited. We need more. I have also been concerned about the adequacy and speed of the UN's response, although this should now change. The UK has been supporting the people of Darfur since the autumn of last year. We have already provided 19.5 million to UN agencies, the International Committee of the Red Cross and operational non-governmental organisations. We have seconded staff to the Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs and the UN Joint Logistics Centre to help co-ordination of the relief effort. During my visit, I announced a further commitment of 15 million, which will take the total humanitarian assistance contribution by the UK to more than 34 million. That includes the airlifting of blankets and shelter materials. The UK, the US and the European Commission have to date provided three quarters of the international response and there is an urgent need for other donors to do more.
	The main cause of the crisis is insecurity. Despite the 8 April ceasefire, fighting has continued and villages have been attacked by armed militias. Yesterday, I raised with First Vice-President Taha the urgent need for the Government of Sudan to rein in the janjaweed and other militias, condemn the acts of violence and provide adequate protection for displaced people. Equally, rebel groups must observe the ceasefire.
	The deployment of the African Union ceasefire monitoring team is therefore urgent. When I met military observers from the team in el-Fasher, they told me that they planned to deploy their team of 120 observers as quickly as possible. The UK will contribute one of the six observers requested from the European Union and I hope that other contributing nations will get their observers there soon. The Government of Sudan have promised full support for the monitors and the UK has provided 2 million to help the African Union team to set itself up. In addition, the United Nations will deploy human rights monitors throughout Darfur with British financial support.
	The resolution of this crisis requires a political solution. The protocols signed in Naivasha on 26 May are a significant and welcome step towards a comprehensive peace agreement for Sudan. I call on all the parties involved in the conflict in Darfur now to engage in discussions to find a peaceful way forward.
	We are in a race against time in Darfur. The United Kingdom remains committed to doing all that it can to help those affected and to work for a just and lasting peace for its people.

John Bercow: I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, for the respect for Parliament that he has shown in coming to deliver it immediately on his return from the Sudan and for his characteristic courtesy in providing advance sight of it. I also welcome both his financial commitment and his energetic diplomacy.
	The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights is clear about the fact that the janjaweed militia is responsible for massive violence, that a climate of impunity prevails in Darfur and that the Government of Sudan permit the janjaweed to exercise a reign of terror over the people of Darfur. His report last month, and those of Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the International Crisis Group, have all painted a consistent and unmistakable picture. The victims of the crisis in Darfur have suffered grievously. They need helphelp on a huge scale, and help now.
	When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the ceasefire monitors to be deployed? Can he confirm that they will cover el-Geneina in the west, el-Fasher in the north and Nyala in the south? Does he agree that when the Sudanese Government are urged to provide immediate and full access for aid operations in Darfur, pressure could usefully be applied for the opening of the rail line so that the United Nations can make massive deliveries of food and medicine from Port Sudan?
	The right hon. Gentleman spoke of assurances about fast-track delivery. Given that the UN emergency co-ordinator noted earlier this week the Sudanese Government's imposition of new obstacles to aidincluding an insistence that all medical supplies be tested in Sudanese laboratories and that all supplies, including food, be carried in Sudanese trucks and distributed by Sudanese charities or Government agencieswill he satisfy himself that those obstacles have been removed, or will be as a matter of urgency?
	Will the right hon. Gentleman underline the important point that the rebel forces, notwithstanding their deep sense of grievance, should themselves admit all humanitarian aid facilities into territory that they control, including from Government-controlled areas, provided only that those deliveries are not accompanied by Government military forces?
	What assurances can the right hon. Gentleman offer that forcible repatriation of refugees will not take place, given the palpable lack of security that they would face? In a letter to me dated 25 May, he saidand he reiterated it todaythat the United Kingdom expected the Sudanese Government to rein in the janjaweed militias. Does he accept that reports that the Sudanese Government are simply incorporating the janjaweed into the country's formal police and security structures offer scant reassurance to those who are only too well aware of their wanton savagery?
	Given that it is vital that the impotence and passivity of the United Nations in the face of genocide in Rwanda are not repeated in Sudan, does the Secretary of State accept that he needs to press for a robust United Nations Security Council resolution that explicitly condemns the Government of Sudan for the ethnic cleansing in Darfur? Does he further accept that the Security Council should appoint a high-level panel to investigate possible war crimes in Darfur, hold the culprits to account and deter the commission of further atrocities?
	The UN rapporteur on extra-judicial, summary and arbitrary executions, Asma Jehangir, is reported on the BBC website as saying of Darfur that
	Numbers are staggering, the situation is terrible . . . There is no accountability and in some areas the Government are in complete denial.
	Again, the rights of innocent African people have been violated upon a scale so grotesque as to defy all but the most lurid imaginations. The Secretary of State knows that the world has a chance to ensure that Darfur does not descend into genocide. More lives are lost as each day passes. There is not a moment to lose. Our duty in terms of humanitarian aid, diplomatic contact and unrelenting moral and political pressure is clear. In standing up to evil, rescuing its victims and ensuring the guilty are brought to book, the Secretary of State will receive stalwart and unflinching support from those on the Conservative Benches.

Hilary Benn: I thank the hon. Gentleman both for his kind words and for his searching questions. I will do my best to answer each of them.
	I can confirm that the African Union monitors will be located in el-Geneina, Nyala and el-Fasher, where they are planning to set up their base, and three other places in Darfur. They told me the night before last that they were hoping to deploy within four to six weeks.
	My understanding is that the World Food Programme is currently using the rail line to deliver some supplies, but I accept the hon. Gentleman's point that all possible means should be used to ensure that the supplies that are required get to those who need them.
	I specifically raised the question of obstacles to the delivery of relief supplies and medical supplies. The answer that I was given was that testing is not required for drugs that are already on the formulary list and it is required only for new medicines. I sought clarification on that point. The Government of Sudan announced that, from now on, customs clearance would be achieved within seven days and that non-governmental organisations importing humanitarian supplies for Darfur could do so by sending the documentation direct to the department for humanitarian affairs, rather than through the customs department, which represents a step forward. The Government also assured me in respect of new NGOs seeking to go to help to deal with the crisis in Darfur that, whereas currently it can take six to nine months to register a new NGO in Sudan, upon receipt of an application, a response saying yea or nay will be given within 10 days. As long as that is followed through, that will represent a big step forward.
	I agree with the hon. Gentleman's point about the importance of rebel forces in ensuring that access is permitted to all areas. As for assurances on repatriation, from my conversations with the refugees, the displaced people in the camps, it is clear that they will not go. Time after time, when I asked who was responsible for the attacks, they said, The Government. It was a feature of their stories that assault by air was followed by militias turning up on camels or horses attacking their villages.
	On the hon. Gentleman's point about policing and security, one person said to me that putting a badge on the janjaweed would not give people a sense of security. In the Abu Shouk camp, the Government have deployed additional police. The people I spoke to there said that there was a greater sense of security. It is important that the Government of Sudan deploy police forces to provide security, because, as I think we both recognise, that is the fundamental cause of the problem.
	Do we need a Security Council resolution? As the hon. Gentleman will know, one is planned in relation to the signing of the Naivasha protocols and it is essential in the Government's view that that should include a reference to the crisis in Darfur.
	The protocols provide a framework for the start of political discussions, which are needed to solve the problems.
	I, too, have read what Bertrand Ramcharan had to say about human rights abuses, and that certainly reflects what I saw with my own eyes, including a number of burned-out villages as we flew into el-Fasher, standing out starkly from the brown of the desert, pitch black and destroyed.
	Three actions have been determined on. First, there has been agreement that an independent expert, approved by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, should be appointed to investigate human rights abuses throughout Sudan, including Darfur. Secondly, the Office of the UNHCR has recommended the appointment of an international commission of inquiry, but that needs to be implemented. Thirdly, the monitors are to be deployed, and I took the decision that the UK would fund those, because that seems to me a very practical contribution that we can make.
	On the hon. Gentleman's last point, there is no doubt whatever that the Government of Sudan have been in denial about the scale of the crisis. That is certainly what I found when I was Khartoum last December. I do not think that they are still in denial, but time is not on their sideor ours.

Tom Brake: I, too, thank the Secretary of State for coming to the House so soon after his return and for his courtesy in providing an advance copy of the statement. There is clearly a humanitarian crisis of biblical proportions emerging in Darfur and I congratulate him on the role that he has played in drawing it to the attention of the international community. What additional measures can the UK Government take to encourage the Sudanese Government to issue forthright statements condemning the murders in Darfur and to issue the military orders that are needed to bring those killings to an end? Can we also perhaps provide some training for the police who will have to be deployed in the area to ensure that they are properly representative of the communities and therefore not seen as a threat to the displaced people when they return?
	What action can the UK Government and the international community take if the Sudanese Government do not respond to those requests? Does the Secretary of State agree with the definition of ethnic cleansing deployed by the Sudanese Foreign Minister, who believes that it is not currently happening in Darfur?

Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman asked what more the Government could do. They can do what they have tried to do up to now, which is to say to the Government of Sudan that they bear the primary responsibility. To be frank about the current problem, we know that there was a rebellion, which started this whole process off, that the Sudanese Government had some difficulty in dealing with and therefore invoked forces that they now have some difficulty in controlling. It is their primary responsibility to use all their influence and power to rein in the militia, provide security and deploy police.
	I must say that I do not think that it would not be the best use of our resources currently to train the police. The responsibility for effective security rests with the Government of Sudan and there are enormous humanitarian needs that will still need to be met, which is why I announced the further substantial commitment of money from the UK when I was in Khartoum yesterday.
	I have read with great care, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman has, what Bertrand Ramcharan said about massive human rights violationslargely ethnically based
	perpetrated by the Government of Sudan and its proxy militia, many of which may constitute war crimes and/or crimes against humanity.
	In some senses, this is a conflict that has got out of hand. The Sudanese Government have come to realise that a military solution will not work, which is why I found in my discussions yesterday a greater willingness to consider the need for political talks, building on what was achieved in Naivasha. One of the tragedies is that the real and substantial political achievement, which the whole House will recognise, of negotiating the framework agreement, bringing the hope of an end to the longest running civil war in Africathat negotiation took great courage and commitment on both sideshas now been overshadowed by the crisis in Darfur.
	Yet if the same spirit of partnership, of give and take and of discussion that has characterised that agreement can be shown by the parties to the conflict in Darfur, there is hope of trying to deal with the agony that the people of that part of the country face.

Sally Keeble: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the action that he has taken, which is extremely important and will make a real difference to the lives of many people. I spent a week in southern Sudan last month looking at some of the problems and I was strongly lobbied about actions in the Shilluk kingdom that have been similar to those in Darfur, but on a smaller scale.
	Based partly on that experience, and partly on information that my right hon. Friend has provided, I urge three things on him. First, will he continue to put maximum pressure on the Sudan Government, who have at worst fomented, and at best permitted, some of the devastation? Secondly, will he look urgently at the UN's capacity to deal with the crisis? From what I saw, it does not have the kind of resources needed to deal with the scale of the problem. Thirdly, I urge him to ensure that we consistently fund the rebuilding of Sudan, both to deal with the humanitarian problems and to enable local capacity building for the transition to peace. In the long term, what is happening in Darfur and the rest of Sudan will be resolved only if there is a lasting peace so that people can start to rebuild their lives, and some of the awful wrongs and sufferings can be put right.

Hilary Benn: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the visit that she undertook and I look forward to having the opportunity to discuss with her further the details of what she saw in Sudan. I undertake to continue to put as much pressure as I can on the Government of Sudan to fulfil their responsibilities. As I expressed in my opening statement, I share the concern at the lack of speed and urgency with which the UN has responded to this crisis. I think that that is beginning to change, however, and I met Kevin Kennedy, who is in Sudan in an acting capacity and will be replaced during the next two or three weeks by Eric de Mul. There is now a much stronger sense of urgency on the part of the UN, and we must build on that and make sure that it turns into action on the ground.
	On my hon. Friend's third point, I could not agree with her more. One of the tragedies of Darfur is that we are having to spend moneyalthough rightlyon dealing with the humanitarian crisis when, if there were peace and stability in Sudan on the basis of the Naivasha agreement, we could use those resources to help the development of this desperately poor country. She is right to draw attention to the problems in other regions of the country. As well as the historic north-south conflict, there is a problem between the centre and the periphery of Sudan. That is why a solution has to be based on the principles that have been so carefully negotiated in Naivasha.

Andrew Robathan: I, too, pay tribute to the Secretary of State for the interest that he, like his predecessor, has shown in Sudan. That is to their credit. Does he agree that the Government of Sudan have form? At the very time when they were discussing peace at Naivasha, they were employing exactly the same tactics in Darfur as those that they have employed over a number of years in the south and in the upper Nile, including using helicopter gunships and armed mounted militia trained or sponsored by the Government. Can anyone have faith in the Sudanese Government and can the people of Darfur trust them ever to provide security there after the way in which they have behaved?

Hilary Benn: I apologise for being unable to attend the Westminster Hall debate this morning. I had been very much hoping to participate, but a sandstorm delayed my arrival back in the United Kingdom. As excuses go, that takes some beating.
	The hon. Gentleman is right about what one might describe as the instinctive reaction of the Government of Sudan to difficulties that they have faced. However, the fact that the Naivasha protocols have been negotiated, in recognition that it was not possible in the end to find a military solution to the conflict between the north and the south, shows that there is sufficient political recognition in the system that another way forward must be found. I simply express the hopealthough I will understand if the hon. Gentleman is scepticalthat exactly that same spirit can be applied to resolving the conflict in Darfur. If it can be done in relation to the north and the south, then I believe that it can be done in Darfur.

George Foulkes: I commend both Opposition spokesmen for their recognition of the work that the Secretary of State has done. I hope that the Secretary of State will ignore the ill-informed criticism from people who ought to know better that he is supposedly preoccupied with Iraq and ignoring Sudan. The evidence is quite to the contrary.
	Does the Secretary of State accept that it is not the responsibility of the United Kingdom Government to solve every problem around the world on their own? The first responsibility is that of the parties to the conflict in Sudan, and the Government must tell us what more can be done to try to find some peace agreement or accord. Further, will there be a donor conference to bring together those countries that are not yet participating? It is not just Britain and America that should provide the resources for dealing with all these conflicts. Other countries have equal responsibility.

Hilary Benn: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. As he knows, the two largest bilateral donors in response to the crisis in Darfur are first, the United States of America and secondly, the United Kingdom. That point bears some reflection. On the action that I now propose to take, I discussed the situation in Darfur with my EU Development Minister colleagues when we met in Dublin on 1 June, and I promised them that I would report back to them following my visit. I shall do so as quickly as possible, to make the point that the needs there are enormous and that we must all do more in response to the humanitarian crisis.
	My right hon. Friend will also be aware of the meeting in Geneva last week. The UN appealed overall for $288 million for its 90-day plan. The UN in Khartoum told me that it estimates that it is still short of between $80 million and $100 million, although since then the UK has announced a further pledge of 15 millionabout $27 millionwhich will make a contribution. However, I take on board my right hon. Friend's point about the need for others to contribute to solving the problem.

Nicholas Winterton: The Secretary of State is building an outstanding reputation for himself in the way in which he is dealing with the responsibilities of his portfolio. I commend him fully on the prompt emergency action that he is taking.
	May I press the right hon. Gentleman on the questions put by my hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan)? Are the Government of Sudan not responsible for much of the displacement and crisis in Darfur, through the janjaweed militias, which are closely associated with the Government? What further action can be taken by this country, the United Nations and surrounding countries to bring pressure to bear on the Government of Sudan?

Hilary Benn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. The Government of Sudan do bear the primary responsibility; there is no question about that. As for the best thing that we can do, we must show the Government of Sudan that the world is taking an interest, and that the worldnot just some countries, but as many countries as possibleintends to put pressure on the Government of Sudan to live up to those responsibilities, as I sought to do during my visit. Another point that we must make forcefully is that the Government of Sudan have understandably been looking forward, in the light of the negotiation of the Naivasha protocols, to the possibility that they could now unlock support from the international community for the development of their desperately poor country. That is something that we all want, because the people of Sudan have suffered too much, for far too long. However, I said clearly to those whom I met in Khartoum that while the situation in Darfur remains unresolved, the prospects of that happening are remote. There is now a powerful incentive for the Government of Sudan to live up to their responsibilities, because that is the key not only to solving the problem in Darfur but to opening up the possibility of a better future for the people of their country.

David Drew: I sincerely thank my right hon. Friend for going to Sudan and drawing attention to this scandalous crisis. His analysis of the UN is appropriate. We have been disappointed at how long it has taken for the UN to become fully engaged in the situation.
	I am pleased that we are willing to pay for monitors, but does my right hon. Friend accept that we may need to go further, and that there are dangers inherent in providing insufficient resources, as we have seen to some extent in the Democratic Republic of the Congo? We must learn from what has happened in the past, and provide not only funds but the people to bring peace on the ground, because that is the only future that Sudan really looks forward to.

Hilary Benn: I take my hon. Friend's point entirely. One of the most difficult aspects of this crisis is the things that we do not know. How many people have been displaced from their villages but have not made their way to the refugee camps or the settlement areas? What is their condition? Do they have access to food, shelter and medical supplies? That sense of uncertainty, which I felt very profoundly when I was there, should urge us to ensure that we do all we possibly can. When we pull back the covers and see the full picture, none of us wants to discover that there are people who have been in desperate need. That requires an end to the attacks, because with security comes improved access, and more money from the international system; but it also requires more people on the ground to make things happen. The non-governmental organisations that I met made that very powerful plea, and all those things need to happen if we are going to resolve this crisis.

Martin Smyth: I join in the tributes that have been paid to the Secretary of State for the work that he has done. In his last response, there was a lack of a real assurance that things are going to move as fast as he would like. Does he agree with me that this House is taking an interest in this issue not, as some cynics say, because we are looking after white interests or particular religious viewpoints, but because the struggle in Darfur is not one that we ourselves have had a close association with? In that context, is it not about time that the United Nations began to mark the cards of Governments and countries such as Sudan? We need to show that we have learned the lessons of Iraq and Bosnia, and to deal with those at the top, who have given the orders to commit acts of savagery on the ground. Nobody can say that planes were launched without the understanding of their Government, and if their air force and army minions can opt out, it is about time that we tracked down the Ministers who are guilty of grievous crimes against humanity, for that is what is really happening in Darfur.

Hilary Benn: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that those who have committed these atrocities should be called to account for what they have done. On action by the United Nations, I hope to speak to the Secretary-General when I have finished answering questions. The UN has an important role to play in ensuring that the attention of the international community remains focused on the situation in Darfur. The UN's voice needs to be heard, adding to the pressure from the UK and other countries on the Government of Sudan, to ensure that they honour their obligations and do what needs to be done.

Tom Clarke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that during this morning's excellent debate, initiated by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), unanimous appreciation was offered for the role that my right hon. Friend has played not just in the past weekimportant though that has beenbut since the first signals of this terrible carnage were given? In the light of what he said about the need for pressure on the Government of Sudan, a view that was widely shared in this morning's debate, will he continue to use his influence not only with the United Nations and its agenciesimportant though that isbut with the influential United States and the European Union?
	We note that my right hon. Friend mentioned the European Union's contribution. In the light of political enlargement and of the need for the EU to play the political role that it is now capable of playing, does my right hon. Friend accept that he will have the full support of the House if he continues to do the very forceful job that he is currently doing, if only because, as the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) rightly said, none of us wants to repeat the terrible mistakes that were made in respect of Rwanda a decade ago?

Hilary Benn: I will endeavour to do all the things that my right hon. Friend has asked me to do. One practical thing that the EU is doing is contributing, through the new peace support facility, to the funding of the African Union's ceasefire monitoring mission. In fact, this will be the first use of that facility, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the EU commissioner Poul Nielsen, whose idea it was. It is an intensely practical policy that uses resources from the European development fund to back an African initiative. The other organisation that deserves enormous credit is the African Union, which came up with the idea of the monitoring mission and is putting it together. That is a really good example of Africa beginning to build its own capacity to deal with problems of conflict on that continent. The House should unreservedly welcome that because it means more capacity in the system, and who better to take first responsibility for dealing with conflict in Africa than the other nations of Africa?

John Maples: This crisis and disaster has been known about for months and widely reported for weeks. The Secretary of State says that he is looking for a political solution, but the problem is caused by armed militias, supported by the Sudanese Government. Does he think that the doctrine of humanitarian intervention justifies military intervention in these circumstances, either with or without a United Nations Security Council resolution? I should point out that if the UN fails this test as it failed in Rwandawhether military intervention is required or notany faith that anybody has in its ability to deal with crises in which hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people die will be damaged for a very long time to come.

Hilary Benn: I accept the hon. Gentleman's point about this crisis being a test for the international community and for the United Nations, but the latter's ability to respond, as he well knows, is a function of the willingness of its member states to will or support such intervention. That is the dilemma that has been wrestled with for a very long time. We look forward with great interest to the report of the high level panel, established by Kofi Annan last autumn, which is grappling with these issues as we speak.
	I should also point out to the hon. Gentleman that there is a negotiated ceasefire as of 8 April. It is difficult to say that it is largely being observed, but it is clearly being observed in places; however, attacks are continuing. We have evidence from Sudan itself of the effectiveness of ceasefire monitoring missions. For example, in terms of the ceasefire that began the Naivasha process, monitors have been doing an outstanding job in the Nuba mountains. There is one person from either side, with transport, including helicopters, and if an allegation is made that something is happening, they go there quickly and sort it out. The process has been very effective, and given that the African Union monitoring mechanism is now being deployed, the most effective thing that we can do is to give it total support, so that it can do its job of ensuring that the ceasefire actually applies. If the ceasefire applies, circumstances can begin to change.

Diane Abbott: The whole House will want to congratulate the Secretary of State on the lead that he has taken in respect of a tragedy that has unfolded largely as the eyes of the world were on the middle east. The question of military intervention has been raised, and he is quoted in the newspapers today as ruling it out. Does he accept that many of us support him in ruling out military intervention at this point, and that we support the emphasis that he has correctly placed on the responsibility of the Sudanese Government, the role of the UN and the potential role of the African Union? I believe that, in the long run, the only sustainable solution to the problems of that continent lies in the hands of Africans themselves.

Hilary Benn: I can only agree with every single word that my hon. Friend has said. I agree in particular with her last point, which is why I am such a strong supporter of the African Union's initiative on peace and security, the development of its standby force, its current force in Burundi, and the regional initiative taken by the Economic Community of West African States, which first sent troops into Liberia when the fighting and carnage were going on Monrovia. That is exactly the direction in which we need to go, not least because in the past, when the world wanted something to be done, it has traditionally looked to a very small number of countries to do it. One reason why it has been difficult to respond is that that burden has fallen in particular on a small number of countries. Increasing the world community's capacity to take effective action is something that we should welcome, and that is exactly what the African Union is doing.

Jenny Tonge: I wonder whether the Secretary of State has managed to read the International Development Committee report on the Sudan, which was produced during the 199798 Session? If so, does he share my concern that that report described circumstances very similar to Sudan's in the lead-up to the humanitarian crisis in Bahr el Ghazal in 1998? Does he agree that the only way to prevent conflict and bring about truly lasting peace in the Sudan, which is a huge country and very difficult to control, is to have long-term development and, above all, control over the spread of arms in the country?

Hilary Benn: I have not read the report to which the hon. Lady refers, but I should and I will, and I would like time to reflect on the points that she made. As I said in response to an earlier question, I share her desire for long-term development in this poor country. In order for that to happen, certain other things have to happen earlier. That means turning the Naivasha protocols into a comprehensive peace agreement. In my discussions with First Vice-President Taha yesterday, he expressed his commitment to that, working through the partnership that he has developed with John Garang. That was one of the products of the long period that the two spent together in Naivasha: they have built a relationship of trust that has enabled the negotiations to succeed. That should be taken forward, but the principles set out in the Naivasha protocol should be applied to the other regional difficulties within Sudan. I genuinely believe that those are the essential preconditions, together with support from the international community, to bringing about longer-term development.

Alan Howarth: Having myself visited Sudan and been horrified by the seemingly interminable history of the legacy of racial and cultural conflict in that vast area, I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State on his moral and practical energy in dealing with the present tragedy in Darfur. Will he tell the House whether there are features of international law that create obstacles to other countries and agencies entering sovereign territory to help with palpable humanitarian crises where the existing authorities in that territory are clearly complicit in the creation of the circumstances of the disaster? What is our Government's policy to ensure that international law is reformed so that, whatever the administrative and political problems within the UN, at least there are no legal excuses for failure to act early and effectively?

Hilary Benn: This is exactly the issue that Kofi Annan's high-level panel is currently considering. The plain truth is that it is one of the biggest challenges that the world faces. What do we do about states and countries that oppress their own people and threaten people in other countries? In a sense, dealing with that problem is what the UN was established to seek to do. There is a recordthe hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) alluded to it earlierof some successes and some failures. The world must reflect particularly on those failures, because people look at the principles of the UN, find themselves in the circumstances that we are facing today in Darfur and other countries, and ask themselves what those principles mean for them. They ask when those principles will apply to them, and I believe that that is a very pertinent question for people in those circumstances to ask. It is our responsibility to answer them.

Robert Key: Can the Secretary of State reassure the Houseand raise it with Kofi Annan when he speaks to him later todaythat there is appropriate satellite cover of Darfur in order to enhance proper surveillance of military activity, the movement of people, better management of agriculture, hydrology and infrastructure and, of course, better communications? That, surely, would be a contribution that the richer countries of the world could and should make.

Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point, which, to be honest, I had not thought about before; but I undertake to reflect on the point.

Malcolm Savidge: I add my congratulations to those expressed on both sides of the House to my right hon. Friend and the Government on their commitment to dealing with this crisis. I urge that we should continue to seek to focus the international community on this tragic situation, not least to pressurise the Sudan Government to give active co-operation to attempts to bring peace and relief to the area.

Hilary Benn: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his words. What has characterised all the questions asked by Members in response to my statement has been the common view that pressure must be put on the Government of Sudan to honour their obligations. In the end, the Sudan Government bear the primary responsibility for the state of the country and the welfare of its people. It is their responsibility to do the right things. Given the difficulties in the past about gaining access for humanitarian supplies, it is important to recognise that I noticed some change during the course of my discussions. I believe that that was the result of international pressure and it shows that we can have some impact.
	We should acknowledge that the Government of Sudan have recognised the need to deal with difficulties surrounding registration, the clearance of goods, travel visas and so on. Those difficulties were simply unsustainable in the face of the crisis, and the Government have moved on that matter. As I said, it shows that international pressure works and it shows that the Government of Sudan are beginning to recognise the scale of the crisis on their hands.

Laurence Robertson: I too pay tribute to the Secretary of State's work. Eighteen months ago, a number of us visited Rwandaa country that has already been mentionedand we were horrified by what we saw. I am sure that the three hon. Members in their places now who visited that country will have been chilled by the Secretary of State's words when he said that there was not much time left to deal with the crisis. We know that in Rwanda a massive genocide took place in a relatively short time. I therefore ask the Secretary of State what lessons the Governmentand, indeed, the international communityhave learned from the genocide in Rwanda. How can we ensure that the same outcome is avoided in these similar circumstances?

Hilary Benn: The circumstances are not, of course, exactly the same. As the hon. Gentleman knows, in the genocide in Rwanda, 800,000 to 900,000 people lost their lives in the course of 100 days. One of the difficulties in Sudan has been the problem of access. In the early part of the year, it was very difficult for anyone in the outside world to know what was going on, because it was difficult to get in. When I visited Khartoum in December, one of the issues that I raised with the Government of Sudan was the need to allow access for humanitarian agencies. At that time, it was very restrictive. That is part of the reason why the world did not see the scale of what was going on earlier. As I have reported to the House, that has begun to change.
	Another aspect of the crisis in Darfur is that it is a process that unfolds rather than a particular event. We need to reflect on what has happened and to ask ourselvesthe international community, the UN, relief agencies and othershow we can be more effective in intervening earlier.
	Finally, it is the degree of uncertainty that causes me the greatest concern. We do not know the full picture, which is why we must strive might and main to ensure that we do all that we can to prevent a catastrophe from occurring.

Hilton Dawson: When my right hon. Friend speaks to Kofi Annan this afternoon, will he emphasise that a concerted, committed push from a united international community would be enormously helpful in bringing the Naivasha peace process to a successful conclusion after a very long period of negotiation? The African Union, the surrounding African countries and African people living in Sudan and Chad desperately need the support of a united international community to enable them to deal with this crisis. Above all, will he emphasise the utter urgency of the situation? The United States Agency for International Development reports that 330,000 people are facing death within the next three months of the rainy season and it has highlighted the absolute test that that presents to the UN to face up to the problem and bring all its resources to bear on it, brooking no obstacle from the Sudan Government, factors of geography or whatever.

Hilary Benn: First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend's role as chairman of the all-party group. I know of his close interest in the Sudan and its people. It is a test that we cannot afford to fail. I can put it no more simply than that. There are two things that we have to do. One is to ensure that we do not fail; the second is to ensure that the momentum created by the Naivasha negotiations is continued.
	The Sudanese Government have shown that they are able to reach agreement to end a long-running conflict that has hugely affected the country's people. We are trying to achieve both goals at the same time, but I made it clear in all my meetings with Ministers that the problem of Darfur must be dealt with now; otherwise, Sudan will not be able to enjoy the fruits of the Naivasha agreement.

Adam Price: The Secretary of State is right to describe Darfur as the most serious emergency in the world today, but the picture that he paintsof conflict and humanitarian catastropheis all too familiar from contemporary experience in other African countries. The specific characteristics of each crisis are unique, but does the right hon. Gentleman think that common underlying reasons exist that are part of a wider pattern of instability in Africa as a whole? We hope that the measures that he has announced will prevent another Rwanda, but how can we prevent another Darfur in the future?

Hilary Benn: I do not think that the continent of Africa has characteristics that mean that it is, of necessity, more susceptible to such conflicts. After all, there have been conflicts throughout the history of our country and the continent of Europe. The question is, what do we do about the conflicts in Africa? How can they be effectively resolved? The essential elements are reasonably clear. International attention and pressure are important, and Governments in the region should take primary responsibility for the welfare of their people. Thirdly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), who is no longer in her place, noted, the continent of Africa should develop its capacity to deal with these matters.
	That is undoubtedly changing. One of the great things to come out of the AU is a strong determination to use the instruments of the peace and security protocol. I commend Said Djinnit, the AU's peace and security commissioner, for the energetic and visionary way that he is taking forward work that really opens up a new possibility for resolving the many long-running conflicts in the continent of Africa.

Alistair Burt: Does the Secretary of State share my concern that there is a danger that the violence in Darfur may be read across to Chad? It is reported that the Government there is already suffering from some instability because of a divergence of opinion about the amount of support to be offered to the Sudanese Government and the janjaweed. What is the right hon. Gentleman's sense of the likelihood of instability in Chad? Does he feel that humanitarian agencies and Governments are prepared for the potential consequences of that instability?

Hilary Benn: The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point, but my discussions in Sudan focused on the consequences of the conflict for that country. However, I can tell him that the UK Government have given 3 million in humanitarian assistance to Chad to assist with the very heavy burden that it now faces in dealing with an estimated 130,000 refugees, and that I am aware of the concerns about instability. Much has been said, and rightly so, about the people who have had to flee their homes, but the House should appreciate that the conflict affects other people too, such as those who find that their settled community now plays host to a large number of people from elsewhere. As we know, that creates tensions and difficulties that have to be managed as much as possible. We need to provide support to all those dealing with the consequences of the crisis.

Points of Order

David Trimble: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is there any way for us to get the Government to make a statement about the remarkable events in Belfast yesterday afternoon? I refer to the Prime Minister's action in sending his chief of staff to Stormont to conduct secret talks with leading members of the republican movement and of the Democratic Unionist party. Those talks were exploited last night by Sinn Fein in its attempt to snatch the Social Democratic and Labour party's Euro-seat. If such a statement were made, the Government might explain how they allowed themselves to be manipulated by Sinn Fein in that way. We might also be able to see the true picture of the positions of the parties involved so that, when the electorate go to vote tomorrow, they will know what they are voting for.

Mr. Speaker: These are not matters for the Chair. However, the Ministers concerned will have heard the right hon. Gentleman's comments, and no doubt they will wish to take some action on the matter.

Jane Griffiths: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A letter in the name of the hon. Member for Reading, West (Mr. Salter) has been delivered to a large number of my constituents. The letter's content is racially inflammatory and has caused serious offence to my Jewish constituents. Will you rule that such a practice is unacceptable and that no hon. Member should engage in it?

Mr. Speaker: I have not seen the letter, and so cannot comment on it. However, if the hon. Lady wishes to deliver the letter to my office, I shall look into the matter. I hope that that is helpful.

House of Lords (Reform)

John Maples: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for a fully appointed House of Lords.
	On 4 February 2003, when the House voted on this matter, 245 hon. Members voted ayeamong them me, the Prime Minister and 10 of his Cabinet colleagues. Since then, the Government have got into a terrible mess. Proposals for legislation appeared in the Queen's Speech, then the legislation was to be introduced the next day, and then it was abandoned, apparently because of some drafting error. Still later, a Bill was to be brought in some time in the middle of March, and then Lord Falconer told the Today programme that he did not intend to bother either House with the matter during this Parliament.
	We have therefore gone full circle on this matter. However, in a spirit of cross-party co-operation, I thought that I would try to help the Government by introducing a Bill to enable the Prime Minister to have his way. My Bill uses exactly the same words as the motion voted on in February 2003. I employed this tactic a few months ago in respect of the European Union (Referendum) Bill, and that became Labour party policy about three weeks later. I hope that the same will happen this time. If the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) opposes this Bill as he did my previous Bill, he is likely to upset the Prime Minister twice in one Session.
	I also want to help the Prime Minister, as his Cabinet colleagues seem to be in the process of accelerating his move down the Corridor to the House of Lords. I am sure that he would want to make sure that that does not become an elected Chamber before he gets there.
	There are two or three fundamental points to be made about what reform of the House of Lords should be put in place. I believe that an elected House of Lords would be wrong, as it would challenge this House's authority. An elected House of Lords would have democratic legitimacy and so would not feel constrained by the conventions under which it operates at presentthat it does not oppose Government business that appeared in the Government's manifesto and that, in the final analysis, it does not prevent the Government from getting their business through. I believe that those conventions would lapse.
	Moreover, I believe that an elected House of Lords would seek to overcome the constraints imposed by the Parliament Acts, and that it would eventually succeed in doing so. An election for the House of Lords might be fought on exactly that issue, and I believe that it would bring about a very fundamental change in our constitutional arrangements.
	In addition, the democratic legitimacy of the House of Lords might on occasion be greater than that of the House of Commons. That could happen at the fag end of an unpopular Government, if that Government tried to introduce unpopular legislation. In such a case, the House of Lords might feel a greater legitimacy in opposing that legislation.
	I am also concerned about the people who would seek election to the House of Lords. They could include people who cannot get elected to this House, or selected by a party management committee. The hurdle for getting into this place is not exactly of Olympic proportions, so what on earth sort of people would manage to get elected to the House of Lords?
	If elections to the Lords were conducted according to the first-past-the-post system, there would be no point to them, as the House of Lords would then become simply a replica of this place, but with rather less able Members, on the whole. On the other hand, if a proportional representation system were used in the elections, we would get a bunch of party hacks.
	One thing that we want in the House of Lords is independence. A party list is guaranteed to remove and exclude the mavericks and independents. There are a few such people in this House, who have somehow slipped through the system, and quite a number in the other place. However, there will be none if elections are by proportional representation of party lists.
	Elected Members of the House of Lords will want salaries, staff and offices, and they will ask parliamentary questions and write letters to Ministers. My guess is that, as a result, the cost of running Parliament, and the amount of bureaucracy involved, will more than double.
	The Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament that considered the issue set out five criteria, which were that the new format should have legitimacy, not be dominated by one party, be representative, be independent and possess expertise. However, those criteria are mutually incompatible. If the new format were not to be dominated by one party, it would have to be elected through proportional representation, which would mean no independence and little expertise. A first-past-the-post system would lead to one-party dominance at least some of the time.
	We do not have much legitimacy or representativeness in the House of Lords, but we do have much expertise and independence. Those are the qualities that we lack here. Why should we try to replicate this place? Let us have a House of Lords that provides some of the factors that do not exist in this Chamber.
	We cannot have a House that is partly elected and partly appointed. It must be one or the other, because we cannot have two classes of Members. My solution would be to give life peerages to all the remaining 90 or so hereditary peers. No more hereditary peerages would be createdor, at least, none that carried the right to attend the House of Lordsand we would continue with the present system of appointing life peers. That would be in the best tradition of British constitutional reform: it would be minimal and evolutionary.
	Why have the Government got into such a mess on this and so many other constitutional issues? They have done so because they have embarked on programmes of fundamental change for superficial reasons and discovered the complexities too late. We saw that with the abolition of the office of Lord Chancellor. The Prime Minister wanted to have the House of Lords presided over by someone in a suit, not a wig and silk stockings, and to get rid of Lord Irvine. The Prime Minister thought that if he abolished the office of Lord Chancellor, he would not have to get too tough with Derry and would be able to get rid of the wigs. Then he found that the office of Lord Chancellor is so deeply embedded in our constitutional arrangements that he could not abolish it, but the consequences were an afterthought.
	It is as though the Government think that history began on 1 May 1997. Some Minister or apparatchik came up with the fatuous phrase about Britain being a young country. Britain is many things, but it is not a young country. However, the phrase betrayed the Government's thinking on so many issues. The foundations of our society have been built up over centuries of evolutionary change, and they include the supremacy of Parliament, the common law, the great universities, independent judges and the civil service. The value of those institutions is in their independence, but the Government have attacked them all in the name of modernisation.
	One of the pillars of our society has been the existence of a second Chamber. Its powers were severely reduced in 1911 and there have been endless debates over the past nearly 100 years on what should replace it. However, the Government seem completely unaware of that debate. They lack an understanding of or feeling for historyhow and why those institutions have evolved. Those who have no understanding of the past can have no vision of the future. They are condemned to live in the present, which is the most illusory tense of all. This Government live only in the present. They ask how their actions will play with the public, the media and the Labour party today orif they are looking really long termat the weekend. That leads to ill-thought-through initiatives and an obsession with headlines. The Government should remember that today's headlines wrap tomorrow's fish. Too many of this Government's fish stink.
	The next Government, which I hope will be a Conservative Government, will not have to pick up where this Government leave offas most dobut where they started, because they will have achieved practically nothing of lasting value in the constitutional arena. I used to wonder what this Government's epitaph would be, but I have concluded that they will not have onejust another day's headlines announcing their passing.

Chris Bryant: It is ironic that we face a ten-minute Bill from the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maples) suggesting that people should not have the right to vote, because his last one called for people to have the right to vote in a referendum. He had some success in persuading the Government that we should have a referendum on the European constitutionalthough I suspect that the decision was not directly related to his ten-minute Bill on the subject. He will not have as much success with this Bill.
	It is also ironic that the hon. Gentleman suggests that people should not have the right to vote the day before we have elections for the European Parliament and local councils around the country. I am sure that people will notice the reactionary note that he has struck today and will reject his party convincingly tomorrow. The hon. Gentleman also referred to the 245 Members who voted with him in favour of a wholly appointed House of Lords. Ironically, that was the least popular option in this Chamber by a considerable margin. It is also the least popular option in the country. The people of Britain do not want people appointed for life to decide how others can live their lives, if they are not prepared to put themselves up for election.
	The hon. Gentleman advanced the two arguments that can be made for an appointed second Chamber. The first is that appointment is the only way to ensure that the right people become Members and the second is that it is the only way to ensure the primacy of the House of Commons. However, both arguments are fundamentally flawed. On the first argument, the truth is that the second Chamber is at present wholly unrepresentative of the country in which I live. The Lords is full of elderly generals and a bunch of other people who would not be recognised by the wider country.
	An appointments system for the second Chamber will always reflect the generation just gone by. It will always appoint people who used to be politicians and captains of industry. The end result will always be a reactionary second Chamber. It is not surprising that the occasions since 1911 on which the Parliament Act has had to be used have all been to counter reactionary moves. The first time was the opposition to the Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill in 1914, and the second was the opposition to the change in the age of consent. Now the Lords want to ensure that we do not use the Parliament Acts to push through a ban on hunting.
	We know that the second Chamber will always be reactionary while it is staffed solely by people who have been appointed. It is also largely representative of the south-east of England and London, rather than the whole of the United Kingdom. That is what happens when the great and the good appoint the great and the good. They know each other because they live in the same streets in Hampstead and Islington[Interruption.]
	It is also wrong to appoint people for life. We used to have a society in which people were appointed for life as professors in universities or as clergy, but surely we have now realised that the whole idea of patronage for life is not only undemocratic but wrong. The words of Isabella in Measure for Measure come to mind:
	But man, proud man,
	Drest in a little brief authority.
	[Laughter.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.

Chris Bryant: I am glad that the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) is close to apoplexy. Those words of Isabella's should apply to all politicians, and we should not have ermine for life.
	Debates in the House of Lords, which I urge other hon. Members to attend, are always the last refuge[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.

Chris Bryant: Debates in the House of Lords are always the last refuge of the vested interest. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon said earlier that the great advantage of the House of Lords is that it is independent and full of expertise and mavericks. However, 60 per cent. of those appointed in recent years have taken a party Whip. That end of the Palace is no more independent than this.
	The second reason given for keeping an appointment system for the House of Lords is to sustain the primacy of the Commons. That is simply untrue. How does it best serve the interests of Parliament to continue to ensure that part of it is illegitimate?
	The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon said that it would be best to retain that illegitimate situation as it does not challenge the powers of this House, but the truth is that the House of Lords has substantial powers. Because of the way that the 1911 and 1949 Parliament Acts were drafted, the powers of the House of Lords increase exponentially in the second half of a Parliament and wreak havoc not merely with individual Bills but with the whole programme of an elected Government. That means we have stop-go government and that is unacceptable.
	If we want to make sure that the primacy of the House of Commons is maintained, instead of everything being governed by convention, with gentlemen's agreements that were signed in some gentlemen's club back in 1915, we should codify the relationship between this House and the other House. Instead of the 10-minute Bill proposed today, we should have a proper Bill to bring in a new Parliament Act, which would codify the relations between this House and the other Chamber, establish the primacy of the House of Commons and give us proper powers over the second Chamber.
	Secondly, such a Bill should establish a proper conciliation process between the two Chambers. We are the only country in the world with a bicameral system that has no proper means of reconciling disagreements between the two Chambers. The current ping-pong arrangements bring the parliamentary system into disrepute.
	Thirdly, a new Parliament Act should bring in what the 1911 Act promised:
	it is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary basis, but
	the Act noted with some irony
	such substitution cannot immediately be brought into operation.
	Of course, we need a second Chamber based on a popular system of electionwhether direct or indirect election, or wholly or substantially elected. Many Members may disagree, but the whole idea of having an appointed second Chamber must be something for the history books.
	I have two further points. First, it is curious that membership of the legislature is still associated with the peerage. Surely, we should be taking titles away from members of the second Chamber. It seems bizarre that we are still living in a country where lords and ladies, barons, dukes and earls still carry titles as they go into meetings as Ministers of the Crown. We should have a more egalitarian system in our second Chamber. The days of 1066 and all that are over.
	Finally, many countries in Europe are relatively new to voting. Spain, Portugal, Greece and the eastern bloc have all returned to democracy from dictatorships of the left or the right during my lifetimemany of them during the last 10 years. Few countries in Europe have a constitution that is more than 60 years old. Surely, it is time that we, who have perhaps grown a little flabby in our constitutional arrangements and have got rather over-used to voting, should finally decide for ourselves that we want a wholly or substantially elected second Chamber.
	Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business), and negatived.

Veterans' Affairs

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.[Gillian Merron.]

Ivor Caplin: I am delighted to be able to open this debate. This is the first time that the House has had the opportunity to debate veterans' affairs. It is, I believe, a significant day for the House and it offers us a chance to reflect on not just last weekend but the wider matters relating to veterans' affairs across the United Kingdom.
	I have been in post for about a year, and I intend to look back at what we have done during that time and to look forward to future strategies. As I do so, a recurring theme will be partnershipwith veterans' organisations as well as across Governmentso I am very pleased that the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), is here today to wind up our debate, showing the cross-Government approach that we take.
	I am sure that the House would also expect me first to say something about last weekend. In doing so, I record my certain belief that all of us in the House recognise the huge debt owed to all those veterans who served during the second world war and who did so much to secure the freedoms that we enjoy today.
	I recently had the pleasure and honour of attending the 60th anniversary commemorations of the campaigns at Monte Cassino, as well as spending three days in Normandy with our veterans, and I certainly look forward to attending further events leading to the final VE-VJ day commemorations next July.
	Last weekend's commemorations of the Normandy landings received huge support from veterans and many other people from across the United Kingdom. We estimate that at least 20,000 people travelled to Normandy for the weekend. I was very glad to be able to provide logistical support from our armed forces to the Normandy Veterans Association in managing that huge and significant event. The result was a weekend of ceremonies that were a fitting commemoration of a most historic event and which will be a lasting memory for all who were there and, I hope, for the millions of people in this country and around the Commonwealth who saw the excellent television coverage.
	I know that the whole House, together with the Normandy Veterans Association and the Royal British Legion, were pleased at the attendance of Her Majesty the Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Wales and other members of the royal family during the weekend. The success of the events is attested by the words of the veterans themselves, one of whom said to me:
	We have been treated like heroes. It was wonderful to come back here.
	The House will recognise that such events are very much a team effort, but I should like to mention a few individuals, in particular the special efforts of General Martin and Leslie Frost, the president and chairman respectively of the Normandy Veterans Association, Air Vice-Marshal Pocock, the Defence Services Secretary in the Ministry of Defence, and Brigadier Shouesmith, Commander 102 Logistic Brigade, whom I thank for all their and their teams' hard work and commitment, which ensured the success of last weekend's events.
	During my visits to Normandy and other anniversary events, I had the privilege of meeting a large number of second world war veterans. They are remarkable for their modesty in recalling personal achievements, for their comradeship, and for their pride in the forces in which they served. I was moved by the comment of one Normandy veteran, who said: I can tell you for a fact that we are not the heroes; it's the chaps who died who are the heroes. Such people are an example to us all, and our society has much to learn from them.

Paul Keetch: rose

Andrew Dismore: rose

Ivor Caplin: I give way to the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Keetch).

Paul Keetch: Before the Minister leaves the subject of D-day, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the leader of my party and all those from the parliamentary delegation who attended, I want to put on record our thanks to the Minister for arranging for us to be part of that very historic day. Many veterans spoke very highly of him as a Minister. In the time that he has been in that role, he has developed policy very well, and the House should congratulate him personally on what he has done.

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I will leave it at that and give way to my hon. Friend.

Andrew Dismore: My hon. Friend may not find my intervention quite as helpful, although I must say that he has done a sterling job as Minister and that the Government have done veterans a great service by appointing a Minister with such responsibilities for the first time.
	While my hon. Friend is on the subject of the heroes of the second world war, I want to raise two outstanding issues that may seem minor but are very important to the individuals concerned. First, a small number of civilians who were prisoners of the Japanese are still excluded from compensation by the nationality rules. That matter has already been to the House of Lords. In all honesty, it would not cost us a great deal and would beef up the wonderful scheme that the Government introduced to compensate those who were affected.
	Secondly, there is the question of people who served on the Arctic convoys. My own late father served on minesweepers out of Iceland; I am not sure whether he would qualify. Those people feel a real sense of injustice that their contribution was not recognised. The answers that I have been given seem a little artificial. Apparently, the King ruled many years ago, in the 1940s, that there should not be a medal for them. The time has come to re-examine that, as we did with the Suez medal.

Ivor Caplin: I intend to deal with medals and other commemorative issues later, so my hon. Friend will have to wait for a more detailed reply.
	I want to conclude my remarks about last weekend. First, let me relate a story from one of the glider pilots who landed at Pegasus bridge on that famous night. Incidentally, a replica of the Horsa glider has been reproduced there; hon. Members may wish to go to see it at some stage. He told me that they landed at about 70 mph. When I asked, What constituted a good landing?, he simply replied, Everyone had to get out alive.
	To conclude on the Normandy events, it would be helpful to give the House some of the statistics that we currently have. I say currently because it is only in the past two or three days that we have had the chance to compile them. Some 18,500 people registered with the Veterans Agency for passes to the various events. We estimate that in the bi-national ceremony at Bayeux on the morning of Sunday 6 June, attendance was in excess of 6,000, including 2,000 veterans, and that attendance at the final parade of the Normandy Veterans Association at Arromanches in the evening was roughly 8,000 to 9,000, a third of whomabout 3,000were probably veterans.
	We had to give medical assistance to 73 British veterans or their helpers, and 17 were admitted to hospital. I regretfully have to tell the House that one veteran has since passed away. Our thoughts are of course with his family. The embassy in Paris and the Ministry of Defence are arranging support for the family and the repatriation of his body.
	I should like to share some other statistics with the House. The logistical support that we provided to the Normandy Veterans Association included 72 Portaloos, 200 umbrellas and, perhaps most amazingly, 48,000 bottles of water, which were certainly consumed in the course of the day.

George Foulkes: I had the pleasure of watchingnot the Portaloos, but the ceremonieson television. May I say, in the cross-party spirit that is developing, that the shadow Defence Secretary struck a particularly heroic pose? I was very impressed by his demeanour. However, there was one sour note about the weekendthat the Scottish and Welsh nationalists, opportunistic as ever, sought to make party political propaganda out of it in connection with the attendance or non-attendance of First Ministers from Scotland and Wales. Now that we have the first opportunity seriously to discuss veterans' affairs in this House, where are they? They are absent, as usual.

Ivor Caplin: My right hon. Friend makes a pertinent point about the nationalists. I do not plan to comment further other than to say that of course Her Majesty's Government invited the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly to be represented at the events, and that such decisions on attendance are a matter for those bodies under their devolved powers.
	In conclusion on Normandy, it might be worth our reflecting on the extent of newspaper coverage in the week running up to D-day and over the weekend. The souvenir issues and photographs that the British press produced were excellent. It is not often that we say that in this House.

Dennis Turner: This is certainly not the end of the D-day celebrations. The Minister will grace Wolverhampton with his presence next weekend, when he is coming to celebrate with the whole city. We are celebrating D-day with our veterans, the Suez medals that the Minister played a major part in having produced, and 300 years of Gibraltar. Those three celebrations are combined in one event in the mayor's parlour. The Minister is coming to present Suez medals to veterans. I pay great tribute to him for all the work that he has done on all those fronts. He has done an excellent job of work, and we are extremely grateful to him. We look forward to welcoming him to Wolverhamptonhe is as welcome as the flowers in May.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the Minister has clearly received the message from Wolverhampton.

Ivor Caplin: rose

Dennis Turner: I should add that they will not be drinking water in Wolverhampton next weekend.

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I very much look forward to meeting him and his veterans next weekend. In France, the D-day weekend is the commencement of 80 days of celebrations, taking in all the other campaigns in northern France and leading up to the liberation of Paris in the third week of August.
	I welcome my hon. Friend's remarks about the Suez medal. I will say more about the current position later, but suffice it to say that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister took the decision to award the Suez medal having referred it back to a sub-Committee of the Honours and Decorations Committee.

Adrian Flook: Last Thursday, when the branch of the Normandy Veterans Association that is most closely associated with Taunton left for Normandy, I waved goodbye to Mr. Ken Prescott and his colleaguesall 50 of themas they set off. They told me that local newspapers, particularly the Somerset County Gazette, had been vital in raising the 18,000 that enabled the veterans to get across the Channel for the whole weekend at a minimal cost per person. However, it took a lot of effort by local people, as well as, finally, some national help. Does the Minister accept that there were problems in trying to get the Government to acknowledge the likely size of last weekend's pilgrimage, and will he take up the issue? It cannot be allowed to happen again.

Ivor Caplin: I am afraid to say that I do not accept that. I shall say something later about Heroes Return, which I think had a dramatic impact on the number of people attending. There was a simple way of ensuring that awards were made to veterans' groups. We made it as simple as possible, and to date we have had 12 calls on the helpline since the weekend, with what I would describe as very minor complaints. I have to say they tend to have been caused by people not having read, or recognised, the helpful instructions that the Ministry of Defence tried to give them. That is a pretty small number of complaints to receive given the size of what occurred last weekend.
	I think that I met the hon. Gentleman's Taunton veterans on the Friday afternoon at the first major event in Caen, and I think that they enjoyed themselves, judging by what I saw of them during the afternoon[Interruption.] In that part of Normandy, the equivalent of what people drink quite a bit of in Taunton is called calvados.

Anne Picking: Before the Minister leaves the important events of last weekend, may I point out that a constituent of mine, Mr. Jock Wilson, who is 100 years old, is the oldest living survivor of those veterans? He was there at the weekend, and said that it was a very proud moment for him. It was also a proud moment for me to see him being honoured by the Queen, and I would like to place on record my thanks to the Minister for all that he did to allow those people that opportunity.

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful for that. I met Mr. Jock Wilson at Colleville-Montgomery on the Saturday morning when he was taking part in the march-past of veterans. He was determined to participate in his wheelchair, and I know that the Duke of Gloucester was very pleased to give him a salute.

Andrew Dismore: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Ivor Caplin: I am going to move on now. My hon. Friend has already asked me a couple of questions, and he may want to hear the answers later[Interruption.] My hon. Friend has persuaded me to give way to him.

Andrew Dismore: In the same vein, was my hon. Friend as pleased as I was to see the AJEX standard in the D-day parade, with representation from my constituency, among others? Is that not a reflection of the major contribution made by Jewish servicemen, both on D-day and throughout the second world war?

Ivor Caplin: Indeed, I was pleased to see that. I certainly recognise the role of the Association of Jewish Ex-Servicemen and Women in our armed forces, and I shall have something more to say about that subject later.
	Having reflected on last weekend, I shall ask a question: what is a veteran? My answer is simple. A veteran is anybody who has served in the United Kingdom armed forces. Including such people's widows or widowers and dependants, that definition covers some 13 million people. It is deliberately broad, to ensure that we embrace all parts of the veterans community.
	Obviously, needs and aspirations vary, and I hope to demonstrate to the House that our approach is tailored to take account of that. The result is that while we continue to recognise the special place of older veterans in our nation's history, we also look ahead to the next generation of veteranstoday's servicemen and womenwho carry on the proud tradition of service established by their predecessors.
	Work to ensure that the 60th anniversaries would be successful has taken up a great deal of my time and that of my officials in recent months, but that is only one area of an extensive veterans agenda being pursued across Government, covering three broad areas. First, I want to ensure that the personnel now serving in our armed forces have as much help as possible when they make the transition back to civilian life. Secondly, I want to ensure that the relatively small proportion of veterans of all ages who face difficulties in civilian life receive appropriate support. Thirdly, I want to ensure that the contribution made by our service personnel to the freedom and security of the United Kingdom is properly recognised and understood, and that the achievements of veterans from all generations are suitably commemorated.

Bob Russell: Will the Minister confirmor not, as the case may bethat veterans also include the Gurkhas, such as those who wish to remain in the United Kingdom when their service in Her Majesty's armed forces draws to an end?

Ivor Caplin: The hon. Gentleman knows that we do, of course, recognise Gurkhas as veteransbut there are other issues related to their return, to Nepal or elsewhere, when they leave our armed forces.

Edward Leigh: When the representatives of the Veterans Agency appeared before the Public Accounts Committee, I questioned them closely on the Gurkhas and their eligibility under the war pensions scheme, and the Minister's officials were unable to give the Committee any proper advice on what decisions may have been made about eligibility. Can the Minister tell us more? Those people have given tremendous service to this country, and it is seven years since they were relocated from Hong Kong to here.

Ivor Caplin: I am afraid that I do not recall seeing that in the PAC report; I shall have to have another look at it, and perhaps I could write to the hon. Gentleman.
	I shall say more about each of the three issues that I raised just before those two interventions, and in doing so I want to bring out three key themes: the enduring importance of partnership and co-operation across Government, and between Government and the voluntary sector in addressing veterans' issues; the progress achieved so far; and my plans and visions for carrying veterans' issues forward, not just in the next few years but for decades to come.
	My job is to ensure that veterans-related issues are recognised and taken into account across all levels of government, but especially by those responsible for policy and delivery of services affecting veterans. As my speech will highlight, the issue of veterans' affairs is a pre-eminent example of joined-up government in action, not just between Departments, but with the voluntary sector too.

Julian Brazier: rose

Ivor Caplin: I have not got very far, but I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Julian Brazier: May I ask the Minister to heed the urgings of the Royal British Legion, the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association and the Select Committee on Defence, which all say that it is a mistake to raise the burden of proof for those wounded or otherwise injured on military service for the next generation of veterans?

Ivor Caplin: I have a feeling that the hon. Gentleman has asked a question to which he knows the answer. We have debated those matters long and hard on Second Reading, in Committee and on Third Reading of the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill, and we have made our position clear. My noble Friend Lord Bach will open the Second Reading debate on the Bill in the House of Lords tomorrow.
	An effective partnership with the voluntary sector is vital, particularly with the ex-service organisations that have a long and successful history of providing support to veterans. I have greatly enjoyed working with those organisations over the past year, and am grateful for the advice and co-operation throughout that time.
	I do not think that it would be welcomed if the Government tried to replicate or control those independent and distinguished organisations. I see my role as trying to provide the focal point within Government with which the ex-service organisations can raise issues and develop appropriate co-operation. That is a role that those organisations have pressed on Government for many years, and it is a credit to this Labour Government that they have been the first to respond positively. We now have a much more focused approach to veterans' affairs across Government.
	I believe that the level of co-operation achieved is a model of its kind. For example, the Confederation of British Service and Ex-Service Organisations attends as an equal partner all my major meetings with other Ministers. The relationship achieved with ex-service organisations is mature and realistic. Both sides recognise that we will not agree on all matters, and that we should not be frightened to be critical of one another where necessary. The voluntary organisations may choose to co-operate with the Government on some issues, while campaigning separately on others. I welcome that businesslike approach.

Tam Dalyell: On being critical of one person or another, my hon. Friend may know that yesterday several hon. Members from different parties attended a short and moving service outside Westminster Abbey conducted by Dr. Wesley Carr for the 29 who lost their lives in the Chinook disaster and the two pilots. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I say that some of us are astonished that the Ministry of Defence can be so certain when it failed to convince Lord Jauncey, a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, for eight years. The Minister for the armed forces knows very well that that man travelled frequently from Scotland to London, paid enormous attention to the case and, at the end of the day, was extremely sceptical about the view of the Ministry of Defence. As we are considering co-operation, would not it be a good idea to re-examine that emotive issue?

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. He knows that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said that he intends to meet the campaign group when time allows.
	Placing veterans' affairs in the Ministry of Defence has been essential in ensuring so many of this year's achievements for several reasons. First, as many ex-service organisations recognise, risks such as operational stresswhich can unfortunately affect some veteranscan be prevented or managed at the outset in-service only as part of a through life approach in our armed forces. Secondly, the way in which the services prepare personnel for transition to civilian life in terms of life skills and housing advice has a direct impact on longer-term veterans-related issues.
	Everyone at the Ministry of Defence and in our armed forces has a positive approach to veterans-related issues. Of course, the service personnel recognise that they will be veterans one day. Indeed, we have several in both Houses. They also recognise that the way in which the services address veterans' issues can affect recruitment, retention and morale as well as public support for our armed forces.
	Funding is a major spur when carrying forward any new initiatives. In addition to other sources, I was pleased that we were able last year to introduce a new veterans challenge fund to pump-prime individual veterans-related projects either undertaken by veterans' organisations or commissioned by the Ministry of Defence after consultation with other interested organisations. The fund totals 2 million over three yearsa significant sum by any standards. We will review further arrangements in the light of the initial results.
	I can give examples of some of the projects approved so far. They include a grant to the Royal British Legion to produce a veterans wall chart for schools to promote understanding and support for remembrance and veterans' issues; research by Citizens Advice to identify how it can improve the delivery of information and advice to veterans, and funding for Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association Forces Help for the modernisation of two playgrounds in its stepping stone homes, which are based in the constituencies of the Under-Secretary of State for International Development, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Thomas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam).
	With the increasing emphasis on multinational military operations, I passionately believe that co-operation on veterans' issues needs to be international as well. Many of the issues and possible solutions to problems that veterans sometimes experience can best be tackled through international exchange of information and best practice. That can be especially important when researching potential health problems associated with specific operations.

Dennis Turner: On international co-operation, has my hon. Friend given any thought to the possibility of our striking an ex-serviceman's medal for the first time in this country for all people who have given excellent service to our armed forces? Whatever time they have served and whenever they served, we should, as a nation, recognise their contribution and present every former serviceman with a medal for service. Most European countries give an ex-serviceman's medal and I invite my hon. Friend to consider that.

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments. I intend to deal with status and recognition shortly.
	I have had productive meetings with veterans Ministers from the United States, Australia and New Zealand and I can confirm to the House that I am looking forward to hosting a ministerial summit on veterans' issues in the United Kingdom early in 2005 to discuss even closer co-operation. Last Friday, I was pleased to have been able to sign a memorandum of understanding with my French ministerial colleague to cement our co-operation on commemorative events and other veterans-related matters. That is an especially important development given France's role in the 60th anniversary events over the next year. A copy of the memorandum is being placed in the Library of both Houses today.
	What has been achieved? As I said earlier, transition is a key matter. The priority is to help as many service leavers as possible to make a successful transition to civilian life. For most service leavers, that means finding a suitable second career outside the armed forces. One of the most important elements in that transition is training to enable those who leave the services to find employment as soon as possible. That is provided under the career transition partnership contract, and is designed to equip those who leave with the skills necessary to make their transition a success.
	Overall, our resettlement process is considered to be among the best for employees anywhere. Our current statistics show that an astonishing 95 per cent. of service leavers who make use of the services available under the career transition partnership find employment within six months of leaving the armed forces and that the vast majority of service leavers make a smooth transition to civilian life. I would like to take the opportunity today formally to thank all those who have been involved in that incredibly successful scheme.
	Preparation for transition to civilian life best begins as early as possible in a service career. Adult learning programmes, developed in co-operation with the Department for Education and Skills, provide service personnel with increasing opportunities to develop skills that will stand them in good stead in civilian life as well as in our armed forces.
	There has, however, been a gap in provision of support and advice to some service leavers. Until recently, not all personnel who left our armed forces each year have been eligible for resettlement advice. The group includes those who are compulsorily discharged, those who are unsuitable for military service or those who are discharged while still under training. The introduction in April of a tri-service early service leavers initiative seeks to bridge the gap. The new policy ensures that all early service leavers receive a mandatory resettlement brief and interview. Trained unit staff provide guidance, including advice on organisations that can help, such as Jobcentre Plus, the joint service housing advice office and the single persons accommodation centre for ex-servicesSPACESas well as the ex-service organisations.
	During the interview, staff will try to identify the small proportion of personnel at risk of falling into social exclusion and arrange more specialist assistance as necessary. That is an important improvement to our service discharge system and means that, for the first time, there is a resettlement umbrella that covers all service leavers.
	Although those enhanced transition arrangements are a major step forward, I know that some who leave our armed forces may need more closely targeted assistance. The Ministry of Defence has therefore commissioned King's college London to conduct research into the provision of more tailored support for vulnerable ex-service personnel.
	Ensuring that service personnel make adequate housing arrangements is another important key to the smooth transition to civilian life.

John Lyons: My hon. Friend will understand and accept that statistics show that, throughout the United Kingdom, several ex-service personnel find themselves homeless. That applies not only to the major towns but to rural areas. I therefore welcome my hon. Friend's comments on adequate housing arrangements. I think that that could help.

Ivor Caplin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I want to say a little more about that later and I hope that I shall cover his point.
	Current service personnel are encouraged to attend briefings on housing options throughout their careers. The relative number of people who face problems is small but, as my hon. Friend pointed out, we want to help where we can. On 1 April, staff numbers in the joint service housing advice office were increased to educate personnel about the need to make civilian housing provision at a much earlier stage in their service careers.
	Fostering a sense of comradeship and belonging is something that concerns the services just as much as the ex-service organisations. I have recently written to the services' principal personnel officers to remind them of the vital role that ex-service personnel can play in maintaining support for our armed forces and how, in addition to the resettlement provision that is available, marking the transition to civilian life and nurturing links thereafter can fully repay the investment made.
	When I first became Minister for veterans, I was very concerned to hear of many cases involving the demeaning practice of destroying service ID cards in front of those who hand them in as part of the leaving process. I personally intervened to ensure that this practice should end, and I am pleased to report to the House that this commitment has now been fully met by all the services.
	It is important to emphasise that the vast majority of service personnel find their service a positive experience and settle well in civilian life after their service careers, but we obviously need to help the small percentage who are less successful, sometimes many years after leaving the forces. I have taken a close personal interest in this matter, and I view it as one of the most important parts of my responsibility for veterans.
	The MOD's evolving policy for tackling homelessness among a small minority of veterans has been developed in close co-operation with other Departments and in partnership with the voluntary and private sectors. That has already led to several successful programmes to assist service leavers at risk of homelessness, as well as homeless veterans. Those include the SPACES project at Catterick, which I mentioned earlier, and the armed forces project at Colchester. I am always happy to see the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) in his place for a defence debate.
	We are also working closely with the Ex-Services Action Group, which brings together representatives from the voluntary and public sectors. As part of that work, the MOD has been actively supporting the development of new, short-term, supported accommodation in London. We also continue to work closely with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the devolved Administrations on wider housing policies. That has resulted in the extension of the group of people recognised as having a priority need for housing to include those considered vulnerable as a result of service in the armed forces.

Mike Hancock: I am grateful to the Minister for his comments on housing. Would it not be appropriate for the MOD to make better use of surplus MOD housing by allowing former MOD personnel who have a problem to live in it? This is not just about the Conservatives' policy of selling off such property to Annington Homes, although that is a contributory factor. Hundreds of homes that are still under the control of the Defence Housing Agency are not being used; they could be used to house the very people the Minister is talking about.

Ivor Caplin: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think that he has answered his own question: the vast bulk of service family accommodation was sold during the privatisation of 1996.
	Of course, the impact of all of this work needs to be measured and evidence for future policy changes provided. We have therefore commissioned a new UK-wide study into the causes, extent, costs and impact of ex-service homelessness. The work, which began earlier this year, is almost complete in England and will now move to Scotland and Wales. I am also committed to extending the research to include Northern Ireland.
	Employment is another important factor in assisting people to break out of social exclusion. In 2001, we established another ground-breaking partnership, this time with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, Business in the Community, Training for Life, the defence industry and the Ex-Services Action Group on homelessness. The partnership, known as Project Compass, provides new employment opportunities and support for homeless veterans. In November last year, I accompanied the Prince of Wales, who has been involved in Project Compass since its inception, on a visit to the project. I do not usually speak for the prince, but I think that I can safely say that we were both impressed with the results of the pilot scheme.
	Our partnership with Business in the Community has attracted the attention of several leaders in the corporate sector, including KPMG, Tesco, Marsh UK, Armstrong International, Publicis and Cisco Systems, who are keen to support the next phase of Project Compass. We are working with KPMG to develop a business plan for the project, which we hope will attract even more corporate interest in tackling problems associated with ex-service homelessness. Next week, I shall attend a reception with major stakeholders to present our plans for the next stage of the project.
	The Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet, will deal with health issues in his wind-up speech, but I want to reflect briefly on mental health problems, which are currently a high priority across government. While the Department of Health and the Ministry of Defence have an obvious interest, it is increasingly appreciated that good mental health is a community-wide and through-life responsibility, with opportunities for older people, the devolved Administrations, local authorities, employers, schools and voluntary organisations all to play a part. We are therefore involved, along with many other organisations, in the social exclusion unit's mental health project, which seeks to help people with mental health symptoms across the range of severity to enter and retain work and to enjoy full social participation.
	Evidence collected by the project confirms stigma and perceived discrimination to be major influences in discouraging people from seeking help. Those are also issues for the armed forces. The project will soon move to implementation, and a major strand of the work will focus on discrimination. I am meeting colleagues in the near future to discuss our further involvement in that important range of work.
	In the context of veterans' health issues, it is also appropriate to mention the long-standing arrangement that war pensioners should be given priority in NHS hospitals for examination or treatment relating to their pensioned disablement. I can assure the House that I take this matter seriously, as does the Department of Health, and we intend to ensure that hospitals, GPs and other key players in the referral process are aware of the arrangement.
	I now want to address the wider commemoration issues. It is very important that, as a society, we continue to recognise the enormous contribution made by veterans to our security. I see two principal obligations, which are closely inter-linked: first, the commemoration of those who died in the service of their country; and secondly, the need to raise and maintain public awareness about the vital and lasting contribution made by those who have served their country so well.
	Next year's commemoration of events leading up to the 60th anniversary of the end of the second world war will provide a fitting tribute to those who lost their lives, as well as to all those who served this country in that historic conflict. The anniversary will also provide a unique opportunity to raise awareness about veterans and to celebrate the role of the veteran in society. A great deal of effort is being put into making the occasions special for veterans and their families. The Government are acutely aware that this might be the last chance for many of the men and women who lived through those events to commemorate them in any numbers. Just as importantly, it could also be the last chance for new generations to learn at first hand from the veterans themselves what it was like to be involved in the second world war. Their memories and experiences will provide for future generations a lasting legacy that needs to be harnessed.
	Last Sunday, it was said:
	It is incumbent upon us to entrust it
	the legacy
	to new generations.
	Those were the words of President Chirac in his address at the international D-day event. Equally telling are the words of Mr. Ray Rosen, the president of the Birmingham Association of Jewish Ex-Servicemen and Women:
	It is important that we should never forget and that the children should know what happened.
	This is the passing on of the baton of remembrance referred to by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his message on the D-day weekend in last week's House magazine. So our plans for the commemorations of the end of the war on 10 July 2005 are evolving and progressing well, and taking into account that aspect of commemoration.
	I can confirm that the main events will be in London, and will include a religious service, a lunch and an event on Horse Guards parade. They will be attended by many thousands of veterans of the second world war, including those who served on the home front. Other events will be planned for the week leading up to 10 July 2005 as part of the United Kingdom's first ever veterans awareness week, an initiative that I hope will allow the whole country to come together to remember the significant contribution that our veterans made and to ensure that it will not be forgotten. I very much hope that many schools will plan events involving local veterans during that week.
	The week will act as a pilot for further annual veterans awareness weeks. I see those events as crucial in ensuring that younger generations appreciate the sacrifice made by their forefathers.
	My aim is to develop new themes each year around the core aim of commemorating our veterans and involving all generations in associated events across the nation. I am pleased that the project involves close co-operation with, and support from, our ex-service organisations as well as other stakeholders.
	While the official celebrations of the 60th anniversaries in 200405 are obviously hugely important, I realised some time ago that many veterans would like to return to the areas in which they served for their own individual commemorations. I also recognised that their exploits and memories could provide wonderful educational material for today's youngsters. I am glad to say that both those strands have been brought together by the Big Lottery Fund's Veterans Reunited programme, which allows national lottery money to be used to enable veterans and young people to commemorate the events of the second world war. Indeed, under this Government, more money than ever before is being put into ensuring that veterans can attend commemorations.
	The largest part of the Veterans Reunited programme is the Heroes Return scheme, which is providing 10 million of funding for veterans, their spouses and, where required, their present-day carers to visit the overseas areas where the veterans saw active service in the second world war. By the end of Mayless than four months after the scheme was launchedmore than 1,600 awards had been made, with a total value of 1.9 million.
	Of course, the biggest commemorative event to receive funding so far is the Normandy commemorations of last weekend. By the end of May, the Heroes Return programme had distributed nearly 1.2 million to veterans wishing to travel to the D-day commemorations. Funding had been received by 2,128 veterans, 963 wives or husbands, and 1,166 carersa grand total of 4,257 individuals. With the ability to make awards retrospectively, we expect the funding and the number of individuals funded to rise significantly.
	The Veterans Reunited programme also includes about 10 million for educational projects under Their Past, Your Future, while 7 million can be used for grants to organise events and exhibitions in the United Kingdom as part of the Home Front Recall aspect of the project. In total, Veterans Reunited has 27.5 million allocated from the lottery for the next two years.
	In carrying forward the MOD's involvement in these projects, I have the crucial support of the Veterans Agency in Norcross, near Blackpool. In addition to its role in the administration of war pensions and provision of welfare support to pensioners, the agency represents the focal point in the MOD for delivery of support to the wider veterans' community, particularly in respect of advice on the services available from the Government and the voluntary sector. Its free helpline and other information services are heavily used, and I know that they are valued by many veterans.
	I am pleased to report that the agency has played a major role in the Heroes Return scheme by providing initial advice to potential applicants. The agency has provided a helpline for inquiries about Heroes Return and has so far dealt successfully with more than 28,000 calls. That represents a 40 per cent. increase over the helpline's normal information traffic. I would like to thank, on the record, all those concerned in handling that huge amount of extra work in such a short time. I am sure that that work is appreciated across the House.

Anne Picking: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point about the Heroes Return scheme. I do not want to malign in any way, shape or form the wonderful work that is being done; it is a credit to the Department and to the country that we are doing this for veterans. However, is he really confident that such a scheme, which, given the age of the veterans, is going to happen in such a short time, can put in place the mechanism for them to return to the countries where they served before they unfortunately pass away?

Ivor Caplin: My hon. Friend raises a pertinent and important point. I can assure her that while there is a need to claim in the two-year period up to the end of 2005, if veterans want to travel after that date, that will be permissible within the scheme. We have ensured that the scheme covers carers, should that be necessary. We hope that as many second world war veterans as want to travel can do so. She will be aware from questions that I have answered in the House on this matter that, at the moment, we are restricting Heroes Return to second world war veterans and not extending it further. That is a discussion that we may have in the future.
	As the House will be aware, to help veterans attend those commemorative events overseas during the two-year period, the Home Office announced last year that concessionary one-year passports would be made available. Veterans and their organisations have warmly welcomed the scheme and, so far, 636 of those passports have been issued.
	I was extremely pleased that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was able to announce recently that all British passport holders over the age of 75 will now be eligible for free 10-year passports in grateful commemoration of their efforts before and during the war years.

George Foulkes: There seems to be some confusion about when that arrangement will start. I was talking to an elderly gentleman and I suggested that he go to the post office. He went to the post office and found out

Anne Picking: It was closed. [Laughter.]

George Foulkes: No, no. The post office was still theremy hon. Friend is not being very helpful. However, it did not know about the scheme, and when we phoned up the passport office it said that the scheme had not started yet. It is very important that we get out the message as to when what the Home Secretary announced will start so that people are absolutely clear about it.

Ivor Caplin: I am glad that my right hon. Friend's post office is still open of course, but most importantly he is right that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced the intention to introduce those 10-year passports. We are working on the detail, and as soon as it is available I shall of course inform the House accordingly.
	Education of our young people about veterans' matters is one of my most important priorities. The Veterans Reunited programme will also raise awareness among young people in a different and, I hope, exciting way. The Their Past, Your Future education programme will give young people the opportunity to research and understand the role played by service veterans and civilian groups in ensuring our national security and survival.
	The programme, which is a good example of collaboration on veterans-related issues across the official and voluntary sectors, will support local partnerships between schools, museums and veterans groups. I was very pleased to meet pupils taking part in the project during the Normandy weekend. Their teacher, Helen Yarrow, told me that her group enjoyed their trip tremendously and will remember it for the rest of their lives. Their enthusiasm was reassuring and certainly confounded those who sometimes criticise today's youth and the educational opportunities available to them. This passing on of the baton of remembrance is crucial if future generations are to understand the freedoms we have today and why we have them.

Robert Wareing: I am interested in what my hon. Friend has been saying about the contribution that veterans can make to young people in learning about the suffering that occurred, not only among people in this country but all over the world, as a result of the second world war. Does he have discussions with the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to ensure that in history lessons, perhaps as part of the national curriculum, young people learn rather more about the second world war, the reasons for it and how it was fought than about Henry VIII and his six wives?

Ivor Caplin: I resisted the temptation to list the Departments involved in Veterans Reunited, but it is a collaboration involving the MOD as well as the Department for Education and Skills and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, together with the Imperial War museum and the national lottery. Matters to do with the curriculum are for the relevant Department.
	Although the education programme focuses on the second world war commemorative events taking place over the next two years, it is also intended to develop into a longer-term project. There will be resources for schools to use in the citizenship and history curricula if they want to do so, and opportunities for young people to participate in commemorations at home and abroad. Education projects of this kind are intended to help future generations to remember and understand the experiences and sacrifices of veterans of all types and their role in our nation's history.

Martin Smyth: In that context, will the Minister welcome the new approach of the Royal British Legion in its campaign to influence and involve itself in the community, in educational and other activities?

Ivor Caplin: I very much welcome the new initiatives that the Royal British Legion is taking, and I had a useful meeting with its executive a few months ago to discuss its forthcoming projects.
	The House should now be aware of a further recent initiative that links the current commemorations, Heroes Return and the education projects. Recently, I sent Members of both Houses a commemorative booklet covering the events of D-day. So far, the Ministry of Defence has produced other booklets on the battles at Kohima and Monte Cassino. Further booklets are planned for other major second world war campaigns, and I hope to extend the series eventually to more recent campaigns and operations as their anniversaries come round. For the benefit of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), I of course intend to ensure that copies of the booklets are available in the Library. The booklets are available to veterans, among others, and I know from discussions with veterans that, for example, members of the Burma Star Association were very pleased with their booklet, as were the veterans whom I met at the Monte Cassino commemorations.
	On 10 May, we launched the new veteran's lapel badge. The aim is to overcome the long-held view that the status of veterans is not fully recognised. The veterans community helped in its creation, and the first tranche is being made available to second world war veterans attending the major anniversary commemorations in 2004. I was pleased that my right hon. Friend Lord Healey, a beach-master at Anzio, agreed to be the first recipient of the badge at an event in Westminster Hall. Significantly, he was the first Secretary of State in the Ministry of Defence when it was created 40 years ago.
	I also presented badges to veterans at the Monte Cassino commemorations. They will also be available to first world war veterans, D-day veterans and others who receive grants to make Heroes Return visits. Given the success of the badge already, I am considering how it might be extended. That will require further decision making, and I shall inform the House accordingly.
	Veterans rightly demand that service be recognised where appropriate through the award of campaign medals, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner) pointed out earlier. I was glad that, after a review by a sub-committee led by Lord Guthrie, following the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, we were able to meet the long-standing demand for a medal recognising service in the Suez canal zone from 1951 to 1954. The strength of feeling on this issue is witnessed by the demand for the medal. We have received 38,450 applications, although the level of new applications is tailing off a little. Obviously, it takes time to handle that level of demand. The Army, which has the highest number of applications, estimates that it will clear them over the next two years. The Royal Marines is assessing claims as they arrive, and the Royal Navy and RAF hope to clear their backlog by the first half of next year.
	I intend to keep the House informed of progress on the distribution of the Suez medal. Between the announcement in June last year and the medal being struck in November, a significant backlog has been building up in all the medal offices. We are still trying to assess the cases, which takes time. There is an individual assessment, followed by creation of the medal with the veteran's name on it, which takes time. I hope that the House will bear with us on this matter.

Peter Luff: I see from the Minister's smile that he anticipates exactly what I am going to say. I hope that I will be able to make this point at greater length, if I catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker. If he attaches such importance to clearing the backlog, why is he choosing this precise moment to close the Army medal office, losing most of the expertise and skilled staff there, and transferring it miles down the road to Gloucestershire? Would he not be better advised to scrap the idea entirely? If he is not prepared to do that, could he at least put the closure on hold for three years, to enable that skilled body of men and women to issue the medal, as they wish to do, to veterans, who, tragically, are dying before receiving it?

Ivor Caplin: The hon. Gentleman and I have met on this matter and exchanged correspondence on it, and we simply do not agree. We need to bring the medal offices together to try to create an environment in which medals can be delivered more quickly and efficiently to veterans. That is one of the reasons why we are doing it.
	Although a great deal of valuable work is rightly going on to support the 60th anniversary events in 200405 and other commemorations, I also want to begin longer-term initiatives to ensure that the baton of remembrance is passed on to future generations. I have made two visits recently to the national memorial arboretum in Lichfield, and I was deeply impressed on both occasions. I am especially pleased that the Government have been able to provide a significant grant in aid for a three-year period to help the new management from the Royal British Legion to carry the project forward. This project has received warm support from veterans groups and is a fitting way to commemorate the sacrifices made in more recent times. As many Members will know, there are also plans to place the new armed forces memorial there, and longer-term proposals for an education facility.

Robert Key: Will the Minister spare a moment to say how grateful we all are to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, and to General Sir John Wilsey, for their work, which we were all able to see on television? All around the world, it is important to veterans, and to the rest of us, that Commonwealth war graves are maintained in a decent state.

Ivor Caplin: Clearly, there has been a leak, because the next line of my speech was that I should also mention the continuing excellent work of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. A number of Members of this House, including the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames), are commissioners. It is not always appreciated that the United Kingdom, in line with its proportion of the dead of the two world wars, meets almost 80 per cent. of the commission's costs through an annual grant of about 30 million from the Ministry of Defence. Those who have visited the commission's cemeteries around the world will testify to the wonderful work of its staffdrawn from many nationsin caring for those who have fallen in the service not only of the United Kingdom but of our partners in the Commonwealth. I commend the commission's new website, which provides outstanding assistance to those seeking to trace people who may be buried in one of its sites. I understand that the number of hits on the website now runs at more than 250,000 a month, from all over the world.
	The commission is also actively exploring options for education projects. Like the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key), I am pleased that the commission site at Bayeux played such an important and prominent role in the D-day commemorations, and that it looked in such superb condition, as did the memorial at Cassino last month.
	Commemoration and recognition of veterans rightly deserves high priority, especially now, but also in the longer term. Our efforts and plans demonstrate our commitment to remembering the service given, and sacrifices made, by so many during the second world war and throughout history.

Mike Hancock: I realise that the Minister is coming to the end of his speech. Earlier, he was asked about the Arctic convoys, and medals for those who served in themfour such veterans are in the Gallery todayand I hope that he will accept that this is a perfect occasion for him to announce that the Government have changed their mind and will award that medal to those deserving citizens of the UK. We can talk time and again about the role of those veterans, but there is one way in which we can commemorate their action, especially on the Arctic convoys: by giving them the medal. I would not want the Minister to miss this opportunity to put his side of the story and, for once, I hope, to agree with the rest of the House.

Ivor Caplin: I answered questions on this matter in some detail at Defence questions on 1 March 2004. That is on the record, and I do not plan to repeat what I said on that occasion. I stand by the comments that I made in relation to Arctic convoys. The House can no doubt debate these issues.
	So what are our plans for the future? I have already said that I would like to develop many of our current initiatives. I believe that the various strands of commemorative and educative work, including veterans awareness week, will be particularly important as fewer and fewer people in wider society have direct knowledge of the essential work of our armed forces.
	My vision as I approach this task is of making recognition and commemoration of veterans' achievements in support of their country a part of our national heritageone that we can celebrate with the veterans among us, but can also pass to succeeding generations. I have emphasised our efforts to focus on the needs of younger and future veterans as well as those of their distinguished predecessors. To that end, I intend to continue the progress made on enhanced arrangements for the transition from service to civilian life by keeping the new programmes introduced this year under careful and constant review. I also intend to develop the role of the Veterans Agency in providing information and support for veterans, and to lock into other Government information services. A review of our veterans-related information strategy is in hand, as are individual collaborative projects on information and communications.
	We have a range of new initiatives across Government and in partnership with the voluntary sector to tackle aspects of social exclusion and vulnerability among an important minority of veterans. I want to make progress on that as well as on the work relating to health matters, which will ensure that our veterans enjoy the full support of the national health service and can enjoy long and healthy retirements. The Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet, will refer to that later.
	I am sure the House will recognise that it has been a busy year for veterans' affairs in the United Kingdom. We have righted an injustice with the award of the Suez medal, introduced new and different approaches to the transition from service to civilian life, enhanced the status of veterans across the United Kingdom, and successfully assisted with the 60th anniversary commemorations of D-day. Moreover, we have 27.5 million of lottery funding to spend on veterans to help future generations understand what happened.
	There is, however, no room for complacency. There is much more to do, and the Government are strongly committed to continuing to recognise and enhance the role of the veteran in our communities.

Julian Lewis: When the debate began I felt that I was coming in as a novice, but after an hour and six minutes of the Minister's excellent speech I feel that I have become something of a veteran myself. The reason I appear as a novice is, however, a good one, of which the Minister is aware: our official spokesman on veterans' affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), is today attending the funeral of his uncle and godfatherwho, incidentally, was himself a wartime paratrooper. As my hon. Friend pointed out, he is in a way doing a service to a veteran although he cannot be here today to do the same for all veterans, as he would like to.
	The Minister rightly observed that this is the first full debate on veterans' affairs to be held in the Chamberalthough I remind him that, appropriately enough on VE day 2001, a full debate on the subject took place in Westminster Hall. That was at the initiative of the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Ruth Kelly), who has subsequently become a Treasury Minister and is therefore now in a position to implement some of the recommendations that she rightly made on behalf of veterans at that time.
	Let me add my congratulations to the Minister, the Government and all who organised the magnificent event at Normandy. It really was an outstanding affair, which was of course entirely predictable. Any of uswhich means all of uswho have personally come into contact with veterans of the second world war, and indeed of other conflicts, know what marvellous people they are and what a life-enhancing experience it is to meet them.
	We all have our favourite little stories. Before I embark on the substance of my speech, I want to share one or two of them with the House. One concerns a man who died very recently, Lieutenant-Commander Pat Kingsmill. He was the only one of six Swordfish pilots to survive the war who were involved in trying to stop the German battle fleet when it sailed up the English channel. It was a suicide mission. The leader, Esmonde, was awarded the VC; all the planes were shot down. I read about the event when I was a lad, and never dreamed that circumstances with which I shall not detain the House would bring me into contact with Pat Kingsmill and the other survivors. I had an opportunity to bring them to the House, where they met Speaker Boothroyd at what was probably one of her last engagements before she stepped down.

John Bercow: Excellent woman.

Julian Lewis: She is indeed an excellent woman, and if there was any doubt about that she showed it in spades that day. She invited those heroes to visit the Speaker's apartments, and made a little speech to them. What she said to them could be said to all the veterans of world war two, including those whose presence in the Gallery today I am not allowed to mention but who were on the arctic convoys. What she said was, Without what you and your comrades did, we would not have a free Parliament today. She added, in her own inimitable way, I would probably have ended up in a concentration camp. Quick as a flash, Pat Kingsmill said, Yes, but we would have been right there beside you.
	The spirit of these people is absolutely indomitable. My second little anecdote also concerns the Fleet Air Arm. I went to a reception and lunch for the Telegraphist Air Gunners Association, and sat at a table next to a veteran who was busily drawing attention to the achievements of everyone else who was present. That is an example of what the Minister rightly described as the modesty of veterans about what they themselves had done. This gentleman was pointing out this and that person, saying, There's Les Sayer: he got the DSM for the attack on the Bismarck, and There's Dickie Richardson: he got the DSM for the raid on the Palembang oil refineries in 1945. Eventually I turned to him and said, Excuse my asking, but were you not involved in any particularly interesting actions in world war two? He looked a little embarrassed and said, Well, I did fly in the raid against the Tirpitz.
	As the House will know, the Tirpitz was the sister battleship of the Bismarck. She was attacked first by midget submarines and badly damaged, then by the Fleet Air Arm and damaged again, and finally by the RAF Dambusters, who capsized her. I asked this gentleman, What was your overwhelming impression of that raid? He replied, The sheer size of the battleship. He said, We came down sharply, as you can imagine, and flew the length of the ship. As I was the telegraphist air gunner I was facing rearwards, and I could see the length of the ship unrolling as we flew along. It went on and on and on. I asked him a rather obvious question: Do you think you hit it? He allowed himself the ghost of a smile. Couldn't really miss from that height, he said.
	I do not know about you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that when I walk out of a room after meeting veterans who have described such experienceswhich can be replicated, because Members of Parliament are given opportunities to meet these wonderful peopleI feel about six inches taller. I feel my back straightening, and I feel very proud to have met and known them. That is why I sometimes wonder a little about the reluctance of some of our officials at the MOD to advise Ministers that it is not only right to commemorate these events as long and as prominently as we can, but as a very good thing to do. It is good for them, it is good for the country and it is good for future generations. It was never in doubt that if a big ceremony was held to celebrate the 60th anniversary of D-day, it would be done well; the question was whether it would be held. The Minister will recall that there were some quite sharp exchanges both here and in Westminster Hall as recently as October and November last year about what level of representation there would be.
	These tributes are very important. It is essential that they should continue and I think that the Government have acknowledged that lesson.
	I would like to say something else about the events for which we are today acknowledging sacrifice. Before these veterans, there were the veterans of world war one. Now we honour the veterans of world war two. Fortunately, we have not had to honour veterans of world war three. One of the reasons why there was no world war three was that we won the cold war. One of the people who was responsible for us winning the cold war was President Ronald Reagan.
	I am sorry to inject a slightly disappointed note into my remarks but I was disappointed that, on Monday, the day we came back, the Foreign Secretary paid no tribute to President Reagan until he was provoked into doing so by the shadow Foreign Secretary, and the Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman paid no tribute to him at all even then. Today, we heard reluctant tributes from the Deputy Prime Minister and from the Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman. President Reagan's contribution deserves better acknowledgment than that.
	In its first report following his death, the BBC stated that President Reagan described the Soviet Union as an evil empire but later changed his mind. That was news to me. I thought that it was because of the way he confronted it as an evil empire that he changed the Soviet Union and was able to reach agreement with it on disarmament measures that benefited all mankind. According to the BBC website, the Prime Minister said:
	At home, his vision and leadership restored national self-confidence and brought some significant changes to US politics.
	Some significant changes to US politicsbig deal.
	Abroad, the negotiations of arms control agreements in his second term and his statesmanlike pursuit of more stable relations with the Soviet Union helped bring about the end of the Cold war.
	We all know that during President Reagan's first term he pursued tough policies with which people now in government did not agree, but they should be big enough to admit that he was right, because he was right. He helped to save us from having to commemorate veterans of a third world war.

John Bercow: I applaud my hon. Friend's tribute to President Reagan, whose commitment to individual freedom, personal responsibility and the doctrine of peace through strength was exemplary. Does he agree, as millions of veterans would testify, that if the alternative approach of hand-wringing appeasement and unilateral nuclear disarmament had held sway, our world would be vastly less free and infinitely more dangerous than it is?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Julian Lewis: I think that the reaction of colleagues on the Conservative Benches is sufficient endorsement of what my hon. Friend said. I cannot resist pointing out that the first time I made his acquaintance was in 1983, when I had occasion to brief him on issues about nuclear deterrence and disarmament, and it has been downhill all the way since then.
	Let us move back to the substance of the debate, and I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for your indulgence when I made that slight but necessary diversion. I want to refer to topics such as reunions, memorials, medals, pensions, stress and homelessness. We have all heard how important reunions and recognition are. They are important for the people who took part, for the historical pride of the country, and for the understanding and commitment of young people who will have the destiny of this country in their hands.
	I appreciate that the Government will take the view that in some sense it has to stop somewherethey cannot go on having large-scale commemorations indefinitely for every major campaign. However, that is no reason to believe that there should not be continuing support on a lower level, certainly from the armed forces, for all those veterans who feel that they are strong enough in wind and limb to continue commemorating the events that lead us today to regard them as heroes and to miss the people who never grew up as a result of the sacrifices that they made.
	I for one was pleased to read in The Sunday Telegraph at the weekend a story headed We'll carry on as long as there are veterans, says Gen Jackson. The article stated:
	Britain's most senior Army officer has defied the Ministry of Defence by promising that future D-day commemorations will be conducted as long as there are Normandy veterans.
	A senior military officer, who perhaps understandably remained anonymous, is quoted as saying:
	The general is a great and active supporter of several veterans' organisations. He is not going to allow civil servants to tell him or any other soldier when, where and how they will remember those men and women who gave their lives for this country's freedom.

Desmond Swayne: Quite right.

Julian Lewis: I was hoping to get a response and my hon. Friend did not let me down.
	I would like a commitment from the Minister at some point that no obstacles will be put in the way of the armed forces when they are ready and willing to give commitments to support veterans who are able to go on commemorating the activities that led to victory in the last world war and in subsequent conflicts, even if they do not feel that they can stage an operation at the same level of intensity as was successfully carried out on 6 June this year.

Ivor Caplin: I must get my own back after the interventions earlier. There is no dispute about the issue. Commemoration is important and what General Jackson said is right. We obviously will discuss with the Normandy Veterans Association and Royal British Legion how they would like to take commemoration forward. We have to be realistic. In 10 years, for example, the veterans who did us proud in Arromanches town square on Sunday evening will be 90-plus and therefore we have to have some serious conversations about the long-term future of commemoration.

Julian Lewis: I am grateful for that intervention. I regard that as one out of one, and I will keep score as I go through the remainder of my speech to see what other positive results I can get.
	The question of medals has been brought up several times and I propose to spend a little time on it, for a very good reason. There has been an ongoing dispute about the events surrounding the award, or non-award, of a medal for those in the Arctic convoys during the second world war. I have benefited from the compilation of documentation prepared by the House of Commons Library. I would like to press the Minister a little further on that matter, even though he rather disappointed the House by hiding behind the fact that he had had an exchange on it at defence questions.
	Let me explain a little about the campaign stars and service medals that were awarded in the second world. If someone was in the Royal Air Force and flew in Bomber Command, they got the Air Crew Europe star. If they were in the Battle of Britain, they got a Battle of Britain bar to the 193945 star. If they fought in the far east, they got the Pacific star or the Burma star. If they were entitled to both, they were given one with a bar on it signifying that they also earned the other. The same was true with the Mediterranean, where they were eligible for the Italy and/or the Africa star, and the Atlantic, where they were eligible for the Atlantic star and sometimes also the France and Germany star. The major area where that does not appear to apply is the Arctic convoys to Russia.
	I do not know the reason for that omission. According to excellent documentation provided by the Library, time and again Ministers, including the Prime Minister, have suggested that the reason was that those who served in the Arctic convoys were entitled to the Atlantic star, but some stars required a longer period of service in theatre than others, and people had to be in theatre for a very long time to qualify for the Atlantic startoo long a period for most of the nearly 700 ships that took part in the Murmansk and other Arctic convoys.
	All the other campaign honours relate to specific battle fronts, and the arrangements were devised cleverly, fairly and comprehensively, but the only way in which we were involved in the important battle front relating to the Soviet Union was through the Arctic convoys, and at the very least, if the authorities did not want to award a separate starwhich I think they shouldthey should have made it possible for the bulk of the people involved to receive the Atlantic star. The Minister's predecessor seems to think that they could have, because he said:
	Service on the Arctic convoys during the second world war is covered by the Atlantic Star.[Official Report, 9 December 2002; Vol. 396, c. 1617.]
	Well, not for those on about 690 of the 697 ships involved.
	The Prime Minister himself said:
	I would like to pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of all those who sailed in the Arctic convoys. Those who served in the arctic convoys during the second world war were awarded a medal, the Atlantic Star, at the time to mark their important contribution.[Official Report, 20 November 2003; Vol. 413, c.1146W.]
	Well, no, Prime Minister, they were not.
	I understand the Government's difficulty. The danger always is that if we revisit such events so long after they have happened we will open up other claims and there will be no end to the need to revise historical arrangements. However, for the reasons that I outlined, I believe that this case stands by itself. Why is there such reluctance to comply? I think that it comes down to the fact that it would make an awful lot of work for the Ministry of Defence. That really sticks in the craw, because one of the advantages for civil servants in the MOD or anywhere else is that, although they follow an honourable profession and may have a distinguished career, they do not go short of recognition and awards. The armchair warriors of the MOD are quite good at awarding themselves medals when the time comes, and it does not sit well that veterans who served in especially hazardous conditions should be deprived by bureaucrats of that to which they should be entitled.

Julian Brazier: My hon. Friend is making a compelling case. Does he agree that there is something very strange about the Government making a special case for the Suez medalhonouring a group of men who indeed served in very uncomfortable circumstances but took relatively few casualtiesbut refusing to recognise a body of people who served in one of the world's most hostile atmospheres and took extremely heavy casualties?

Julian Lewis: The Government will say that the difference is that in the case of the Suez medal they were not able to prove that a recommendation had been made and turned down at the time, whereas that is the case with the Arctic convoys; but that leads us to ask why that recommendation was turned down, and I believe that it may have had something to do with the fact that our ally at the time the medal was earned had become our potential enemy by the time the decision was taken.

Robert Wareing: Should not there be another consideration in favour of the Arctic convoy veterans, in that of the nearly 800 ships that sailed outward to Murmansk and Archangel, no fewer than 7.8 per cent. were lost? In the battle of the Atlantic, harsh though it was, fewer than 1 per cent. of our ships were lost.

Julian Lewis: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point, but I do not want to get into a bidding war about which of these vital battles was the more costly. The nub of his point is correct: by any criterion, the Arctic convoy veterans should qualify. If the idea was that they would get the Atlantic star, the conditions for that medal should have been constructed such that more than just a few per cent. of them could get it.

Tam Dalyell: I want to draw to the attention of the House the case of a former West Lothian county councillor, William Pender, who came to London on 1 June to receive a medal from the Russian embassy for his service on the Murmansk run but has still had nothing from the British Ministry of Defence. Is not it ironic that the Russians can give him a medal, but apparently our own Government leave him unrecognised?

Julian Lewis: The Father of the House neatly anticipates the point that I was coming to: veterans of the Arctic convoy are allowed to wear the medal that they have been awarded by the Russians, and when that permission was given in the 1990s, the Government made it clear that it was given because the situation in Russia had improved significantly, which simply adds force to my point that there may have been a political motivation behind the decision not to award the medal in the first place.

Mike Hancock: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would be the first to agree that many of the veterans are confused about the messages coming from the Government. The Secretary of State says no, but figures as senior as the Home Secretary and the chairman of the Labour party have recently signed up as active supporters of the campaign, saying that the Government should give the recognition that is due. Whose message should prevail?

Julian Lewis: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, and

Ivor Caplin: indicated dissent.

Julian Lewis: I see the Minister shaking his head, but the Portsmouth edition of The News, which has been waging a magnificent campaign, contained a report on 20 May headed, Blunkett backs medal for the Arctic veterans. It says:
	Two days after the Ministry of Defence appeared to deliver a huge blow to the campaign for a medal, the tough-talking Sheffield MP said: 'They deserve a medal'.
	It is not often that I agree with the Home Secretary when in the House of Commons, but this is one of those occasions.
	I do not want to belabour the point much further, but it is very important. It is a matter of honour, a matter of bureaucracy, and a matter of the ability to make exceptions to the rules, readjust them or if necessary reconfigure them to allow an injustice to be put right. The Government should realise that this issue is not going to go away, or at least not until the last of the veterans has ceased to draw breath, which I trust will not be for some years yet. The Government should face up to the issue, get on with it, tackle it and put it to bed.
	In talking about injustices, I shall make just a passing reference to the earlier intervention by the Father of the House on the Chinook disaster. I, too, attended yesterday's memorial to mark the 10th anniversary of the disaster, and the people who organised it made it clear that it was held in commemoration of all who had died, and not part of the ongoing campaign to overturn the verdict against the pilots.
	I take this opportunity, however, to reiterate a point that I have tried to impress on the Government before. The rules by which dead pilots have been blamed for a crash, when by definition they cannot put the case in their own defence, have been changed as a result of this case. If that crash happened again in the same circumstances, those pilots would not be blamed. It would be an injustice for a situation to continue in which, although it was felt necessary to change the rules as a result of the unsatisfactory outcome of this case, the reputation of the pilots in the case itself had not been cleared. I suspect that much face-saving is involved in this issue. I understand the need to acknowledge that senior officers may well have taken the decision that appeared right to them with the rules as they were at the time, and that is no discredit to them, but the rules have been changed and the pilots should benefit from that.

Tam Dalyell: I wonder whether those in the Ministry of Defence involved in the case would at least to talk to Lord Jauncey. He is a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary and has spent endless time on the matter. If he cannot be convinced, how on earth can the Ministry of Defence express these certainties?

Julian Lewis: The key word in what the Father of the House has just said is certainties. The original rules were drawn very tightly and said that no deceased pilot was to be blamed unless there were no doubt whatever about what had happened. Yet there is debate, dispute and controversy. There is doubt about what happened, so the pilots should not have been blamed. Given that they were blamed, however, and given that the rules were changed as a result of their being blamed, it is manifestly unjust that they should continue to be blamed. This is a tragedy not just for those who died, but for those who survived them, because 10 years later they are still haunted by the case.

Robert Key: Is not the situation worse than that, because the Scottish accident inquiry refused to come to the conclusion that the pilots were negligent, as did the original RAF board of inquiry? It was the conclusion of the experts that was overturned. The situation is bizarre, and absolutely against natural justice.

Julian Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I know that he has long campaigned on the matter and knows a great deal more about it than I. I still feel that with good will, even at this stage, it should be possible to find a form of words that would satisfy people that the senior officers did what they did in good faith but that the time has now come to overturn the verdict. I should have thought that that was the common-sense, compassionate and humane way of dealing with the matter.

John McWilliam: The hon. Gentleman is probably not aware that the Minister from his party who dealt with the matter at the time stood up in Westminster Hall some 18 months ago and admitted that he now felt that he had been wrong.

Julian Lewis: I am aware that a number of people have changed their views, but obviously, the concern must be that in putting this matter right, we do not then denigrate the integrity of the senior officers, who almost certainly do not deserve such an outcome. In the light of the many articulate, clever, legally trained, inventive and ingenious minds available in this House and in the Ministry of Defence, it ought to be possible to come up with a form of words that would resolve the situationat lastin an acceptable way to all concerned.
	I shall deal very briefly with some other topics. I thank the Government for providing satisfaction in respect of the Suez canal zone medal, but I can only reiterate the concern expressed so effectively by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) about the closure of the Army medal office in his constituency. The Minister said that he anticipates that the Army will have cleared the backlog after two years. It that proves true, it will be a pleasant surprise. An article in Soldier magazine of May 2004 said that that is not nearly so likely an outcome, and it has been suggested that several years could be added to the time it will take to get those medals issued. [Interruption.] The Minister shakes his head. I trust him, and if he assures me that he has the staff on the job to get those medals out in two years, I will forthwith move on from this topic.

Ivor Caplin: I have made it clear that I will keep the House informed of progress on the dispatch of Suez medals. Changes will be made to the way in which the medal office operates, and I hope that they will create efficiencies both before closure and afterwards.

Julian Lewis: That answer gets one and a half out of two.

Peter Luff: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Julian Lewis: I certainly will.

Peter Luff: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I encourage him not to accept that assurance at face value. The Minister plans to make most of the staff at the Army medal office redundant. The Suez canal website of the Veterans Agency says:
	Checking eligibility is a skilled, time-consuming and exacting job, but the medal offices have skilled staff who are experts at assessing eligibility quickly and accurately.
	Not if the Minister has his way.

Julian Lewis: The Minister's mark has gone down to one out of two, and I am now provoked to make another point on this topic. According to an article on the cost of producing medals, a new medal for the Arctic convoys might cost 140 per medal for the Royal Navy alone. If the people making these calculations are the same people who are calculating the time it will take to issue the Suez canal zone clasps and general service medals to the veterans who will be awarded them, one cannot have a great deal of confidence in the reliability of their timetabling. However, I shall move on because the issue has had a sufficient airing.
	I have only one more point to make about medals, and it concerns what used to be called the reserve and territorial decoration. The Opposition applauded the decision that decorations for reservists were to be awarded both to officers and to other ranks. That was a change for the better, but it was decided that, instead of both officers and other ranks having the initials RD or TD after their name, in future nobody would have the benefit of such initials to signify receipt of those awards. That was not a change for the better.
	I raised this issue with the Secretary of State for Defence back in April 2002. I said that all concerned should be able to put these initials after their name, rather than nobody, now that all in the reserve forces were eligible. He said:
	I will certainly look at that practical suggestion, but I will refer later to questions of recruitment and retention. I will set out some of the efforts that the Ministry of Defence is making to ensure that we have the right numbers of people coming in and remaining in the armed forces for as long as we need them.[Official Report, 11 April 2002; Vol. 383, c. 176.]
	I suggest that one reason why people join, and remain in, the armed forces in a voluntary capacity is the knowledge that their service will be recognised in a public way.

Julian Brazier: I am someone with a vested interest in that I am able to place the initials TD after my name, though, unlike many earlier holders of that award, I have never seen active service. May I tell my hon. Friend as a matter of historical fact that the War Office took exactly the same dim, foot-dragging view after the first world war when the same case was made? That designation was achieved only through many hundreds and thousands of eligible people simply placing the initials after their namesand eventually, acceptance just happened. That may well have to be the case again.

Julian Lewis: I must say that I did not know that particular piece of historical information and I am glad that my hon. Friend has shared it with the House and me.
	Before finally leaving the issue of commemorations, I should like to draw the House's attention to a letter that I recently received from Vivien Foster, who is president of the National Merchant Navy Association. He makes the point that the Merchant Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service were in action during the Falklands conflict in 1982
	when 17 merchant seamen lost their lives.
	He continued:
	To honour their memory, a group of supporters and friends of the Merchant Service met after a Remembrance Service at the Falklands Islands Memorial Chapel at Pangbourne to discuss plans to build a small memorial to these brave men. This project is now firmly under way, the Memorial will be set in the Merchant Navy garden near the main Monument. To this end, a Trust has been formed, the Memorial has been designed and funds are being sought.
	They are not being sought, as far as I know, from the Government, but I would have thought that the lottery might be interested and that hon. Members might, on an individual basis, want to highlight and promote the project.
	Let me move on briefly to the issue of pensions. As the Minister pointed out, the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill has enjoyedif that is the right wordmany hours of detailed debate both on the Floor of the House and in Committee. We maintain that veterans from the armed forces are unique and that they have a special status because of the special risks that they undertake. It should not be said that certain concessions should not be granted to them because of any read-across to other public servants. Members of the armed forces are in a category of their own because of what they do. That should be recognised.
	I entirely endorse the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier), when he expressed his concern about changing the burden of proof in compensation claims. The Defence Committee noted in paragraph 69 of its report that, because of the special risks run by members of the armed forces,
	we continue to believe that the onus should remain on the Government to prove that service was not responsible for causing or worsening a condition for which a compensation claim is made.
	We are sorry that the Government have not accepted that.
	I have spoken about the special status and special conditions of the armed forces. In that regard, we remain unhappy that the widows of people who served in the armed forces but retired before 1978 receive no pension at all on the death of their husbands if they married them after that time. The Government should ask themselves why servicemen would have delayed getting married for so long. It is precisely because they were servicemen. It is connected with their special service, and it is a shamea word I use deliberatelyand a disgrace that their widows are not benefiting from the fact that their husbands served their country for so long in such way.
	There is also continuing concern about the widows of those who died before 1973, who receive only one third of their late husbands' pensions: whereas, post-1973, they would previously have received a half of that pension, they will receive nearly two thirds in future.
	These are inequities. The number of people involved is going down all the time, and it is sad that the Government do not feel able to deal with the anomalies.
	The Government have expressed a concern that existing war widows are likely to remarry and that the number of people for whom pensions would still have to be paid would be quite large. The Government should do away with the anomaly that means that war widows who remarry after what are called the non-attributable deaths of their husbandsthat is, deaths that cannot be attributed to their conditions of serviceare a burden on the Treasury. Will the Minister say how many of the existing war widows who, in December 2000, were granted the concession to retain their pensions for life have subsequently remarried? I suspect that the figure is not all that high.
	I turn now to combat stress. When people are injured in battle, we regard it as our duty to treat the wounds of the body, but it is clear that we must do more to treat the wounds of the mind. I welcome the fact that the Government take this matter seriously, and I note yesterday's written statement announcing the establishment of an academic department to deal with defence mental health issues.
	However, although I do not want to detain the House much longer, I want to set out some of the caveats that I have. I want it to be recognised that some minds are more vulnerable than others to being wounded. If it is possible to identify people with that propensity, they should not be recruited as service personnel in the first place. Those who are recruited should be tested, and trained to cope with what they may have to endure. We do no favours to recruits if we gloss over the risks that they run when they opt for a military career.
	Combat is, by definition, traumatic and stressful. The combatant's mind must be strengthened before combat, and supported after it, but no force will ever be battle worthy if concepts emerge such as those described by Robert Vermaas of King's College, Londonthe very institution to which the Government are looking for advice on this matter. In an essay that appeared in the journal of the Royal United Services Institute in June 2002, he stated:
	By 1990, a mood of recrimination, blame and culpability emerged in the UK, as large numbers of soldiers argued that they should have been adequately briefed about the potential psychological effects of their work. It was the beginning of a political and financial nightmare for many western armed forces. Falklands veterans began to pursue legal action, claiming they were not fully warned of the hazards of their profession and, once returned to civilian life, that they were not adequately treated for the trauma they had experienced.
	One can agree that there is a need to support people on their return to civilian life. However, it is rather naive to imagine that, when people are thinking of signing up for careers in the armed forces, it is the duty of those forces to impress on them that war is terrible and combat vicious, and that horrible sights will be seen that it will be impossible to forget. Interestingly, a case based on that approach in May last year did not succeed in the High Court. It would be very difficult for any country to have an armed force that was effective, deployable and resilient if that force could be sued successfully by its members for not warning them that they would be going into situations that would threaten their lives and their psychological and physical well-being.
	Finally, on the topic of health, I reiterate the call made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot for a public inquiry into Gulf war vaccinations. The Government have some sympathy from us on the issue because it has not clearly been shownand that is agreedthat a single syndrome is responsible for all, or even the bulk, of the ailments suffered by people after they came back from the first Gulf war. However, on the face of it, there is an arguable case that the cocktail of vaccinations that the people were given may have had some serious side effects. That is one aspect that deserves further investigation.

Ivor Caplin: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I hope that he will accept that it is important that the independently commissioned research follows its full course before any decisions are made.

Julian Lewis: One has to strike a balance between allowing enough time for research results to be known to be valid and recognising that the more time is allowed, the harder it is for the people who may be suffering from the syndrome that the research is trying to establish.

Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that another difficulty with an inquiry would be locating records? The Ministry of Defence has admitted that recordkeeping of what type and combination of vaccines people received before the first Gulf war was non-existent in some cases and poor in others.

Julian Lewis: I am new to this subject and I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point. It goes back to the issue raised earlier about the where the burden of proof should lie

Julian Brazier: indicated assent.

Kevan Jones: indicated assent.

Julian Lewis: I see that the hon. Gentleman agrees, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury.

Ivor Caplin: I had not planned to intervene again, but I feel I must do so for the sake of the record. When I gave evidence to the Defence Committee, of which my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) is a distinguished member, on 5 November last year, I made it clear that in the event of failed recordkeeping in relation to pensions or compensation the Ministry of Defence would accept its responsibilities. We have learned the lessons of the failure of recordkeeping in the early 1990s and it is much better today. The hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) is welcome to visit Chilwell to see the mobilisation process and the recordkeeping for himself.

Julian Lewis: I thank the Minister for that invitation and either my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot or I may take it up. My hon. Friend called for an inquiry in response to a written answer in the other place to a question from the Labour peer Lord Morris. The Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach, confirmed that the Government were aware that some of the combinations of vaccination used could cause serious side effects and that vaccinations went ahead despite warnings from the Department of Health and the deputy chief medical officer. That is a serious admission. I do not wish to press it further today, but my colleagues who specialise in such issues may return to it in the future.

Jim Sheridan: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is wrong that the Government do not fund services for veterans who suffer from mental illness? My constituency includes Erskine hospital, which cares for disabled ex-service people and which my hon. Friend the Minister has kindly visited. That organisation is totally dependent on charity and has received no funding from this Government or the previous Government. Is it right that ex-service people should be dependent on charity in this day and age?

Julian Lewis: That situation is not confined to veterans with mental health problems. I think of St. Dunstan's, for example, which cares for seriously physically disabled veterans. I once instituted a debate on the denial of lottery money to that organisation. I would say only that the Government cannot be expected to do everything that service charities do so well, but they can be expected to help. Whether sufficient Government help is being given must be examined on the merits of each case.
	I was pleased to hear the Minister's remarks about homelessness. It is a grave concern that a high proportion of people out on the streets have an ex-service background. Is that because they were insufficiently looked after in service or when they left the service, or are they people who should not have been selected for the services in the first place? The point has been made that people sometimes join the services to get away from unsatisfactory conditions at home and then after their period of service go back to the very conditions that led them to join up in the first place. That problem cannot be laid at the door of the services, but it must be dealt with in a humane society.
	I shall close by relating one more story from world war two. The Minister movingly said that the veterans to whom he spoke told him that the real heroes were the ones who did not come back. Over the years, I have read a number of stories about people who did not come back. Some of those stories are very well known, but there is one that I have never seen except in a book about the George Cross. It is the story of a Royal Air Force chaplain, Herbert Cecil Pugh, who was on a troop carrier, the Anselm. On 5 July 1941, they were on route for west Africa when a submarine managed to penetrate the escorting screen of destroyers and torpedoed the troop ship.
	The account states:
	When it was clear that the Anselm could only remain afloat for a few more moments Padre Pugh discovered that there were a number of airmen trapped in a damaged part of the ship and all efforts to get them out had failed. He asked if it was possible to lower him to them and was told that it was but that there was not time. If he went down, the chances were that he would never get out again.
	The chaplain's reply to this comment was: 'Those men need me. Let me down'.
	So, the account continues,
	much against his better judgement, one of the ship's officers lowered the chaplain into the damaged hold.
	The scene below was illuminated by a pale shaft of light and, in numbed silence, the officer watched the chaplain as he signalled to a small party of frightened men. They gathered round him and he said some words that the officer could not hear but it was not difficult to guess at their meaning. The chaplain sank to his knees on boards that were already inches deep in water and some of the airmen knelt beside him. Others stood silently in the background. Padre Pugh joined his hands together and lifted his face towards his God and, as the water rose around his body, his lips moved in prayer. The water reached his shoulders and he remained on his knees. Then the stricken ship gave a final lurch and a stunned ship's officer made a last second dive to safety.
	I do not know how that affects you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I first read that story 40 years ago. I find it hard, even now, to read it without emotion.

John McWilliam: First, I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his comments about the Blaydon project, which is well appreciated in my constituency. I have been involved with SSAFA over the years and know how well the organisation works with veterans who have problems. It does a valuable job.
	That is not the main reason that I rise to speak today, however. I want to speak on a matter that has already been mentioned: the injustice done to the survivors of the Arctic convoys. I am sorry that the Minister regarded the position he set out at Question Time in March as satisfactory. It is not.
	When the Arctic convoys went into the Atlantic on the summer route, they went through the Greenland-Iceland gap, turned to starboard and headed for the Arctic ocean, the Norwegian sea and the Barents sea. They could do that only during the very short Arctic summer because the ice had retreated far enough for them to get through. The winter route, which lasted for some nine months of the year, went straight from Scapa into the Norwegian sea, and on to the Arctic ocean and the Barents sea, before ending up at Murmansk, which was less than 30 miles from the German-Finnish front line, or Archangel.
	On those routes, the convoys were subject to attack by surface raiders and, when they were further out, long-range bombers; they were also subject to the most atrocious weather conditions imaginable. In February, my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) and I were in north Norway. We spent part of the time in the mountains with 42 Commando and part of the time with the Assault Squadron in a fjord based in a German U-boat pen dug out of the virgin rock by slave labour. On the night that we slept out in a 10-man tent, the temperature outside dropped to minus 30; inside, it was a relatively modest minus 11 or 12. But the kit that we were wearing was light years away from anything that was issued to the brave men who served on the convoys. They were not only from the Royal Navy, but the Royal Marines, the merchant marines, andin the case of the gunners on the merchant shipsthe Army.
	We are talking about some of the bravest men who served in the second world war. The RAF Hurricat pilots were fired off their ships in a catapult, with no place to land, to take on masses of German aircraft attacking their convoy. Their only hope of survival was to land close enough to a ship to be picked up out of the water in the very few minutes in which they could live in those temperatures. They ended up in Russian army hospitals being looked after by Russian army doctors and nurses. Cruelly injured or suffering from frostbite, their uniforms would be gone, so they would have to wear Russian army uniforms, and they would be subject to attack from German bombing. Yet that service did not count towards the Atlantic medalthey were not allowed to be considered for it.
	I have been in correspondence with the Ministry of Defence on this issue for several years, including under previous Governments. My hon. Friend the Minister told me earlier that the award of medals was scrupulously fair. The hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) observed that the criteria for awarding medals differ, but he did not say by how much. A campaign medal was awarded to those who served for one day in the Mediterranean, Pacific or Burmese waters, whether they were in action or not. They got a medal for sailing gently through the south seas for one day without coming under attack.
	The Atlantic Star required six months in the theatre of war, but the men on the Arctic convoys had little chance of achieving that. We have heard the figures already: of 670 ships' companies involved, only six qualified. That does not recognise the sacrifice that those men made. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) gave us the figures: 7 per cent. of ships sunk, as against 1 per cent. in the Atlanticbut the figure that he did not give us was the proportion of casualties from each ship sunk. Ships sunk in the the Norwegian sea, the Arctic ocean or the Barents sea would have virtually 100 per cent. casualties, whereas in the Atlantic there would be far fewer.
	I do not need to explain further the heroism and fortitude that those men displayed. I have no need to say anything more about their individual qualitiesbut in this week when we remember the Normandy landings, I have to say something about what they achieved. Had they not served on those convoys, protected them and resupplied Russia, the Normandy landings would not have happened when they did. Indeed, if Germany had conquered Russia, the former Speaker of the House might have been right to say that we would not be enjoying the democratic freedoms that we enjoy in the House, in this country and in Europe today.
	Those men made a vast contribution, out of all proportion to the numbers involvedso why did they not get the medal in the first place? The hon. Member for New Forest, East was right: it was simply because they were resupplying the Soviet Union, and immediately the war ended the Soviet Union became not just our tentative enemy but our absolute enemy. Almost throughout my life, the Soviet Union was the enemy of this country and of the west.
	That must have been terribly embarrassing for those officials at the time. Could we possibly give a medal to people who had resupplied our enemy? They forgot the fact that had it not been for the bravery and the losses that the red army suffered, if it had not been for the losses and the bravery of the civil population, D-day would not have happened.
	I was privileged to see the mass graves in what was then Leningrad, but is now St. Petersburg, with colleagues from both sides of the House on a private visit some years ago. I was amazed. There was a tiny museum, and in it we saw what the bread ration for the civil population was for the 900 days of the siegea siege that was lifted only because of the supply delivered through Murmansk and Archangel. The bread ration was the size of a packet of 20 cigarettes, and half of that was sawdust. Thousands and thousands of people were in those graves; an appalling sacrifice was made.
	The fact that we did not agree with the Russians' politics, or with what they wanted to do to us, is not a good enough reason for not recognising the contribution that people madebut it was inconvenient for the establishment of the day to recognise it.
	The civil service works on precedent. I have been a civil servant, and I know thatbut precedent is of value only if there has been no significant change in circumstances. The Minister was proud to announce the award of the Suez campaign medal for the 195154 campaign. However, there was no significant change in the circumstances that prevailed between us, Egypt and the Suez canal zone between 1951 and 1954. There was no significant change in the circumstances between our country and Japan after 1946 when we decidedeventually and properlyto award payments to Japanese prisoners of war. However, there has been an enormously significant change in the circumstances between our country and Russia since 1946.
	In my desk drawer, I have one of the last British military government of Berlin passes ever issued, which I got because the Defence Committee visited Berlin immediately after the collapse of East Germany. The Foreign Office did not know what sort of reception we would get, so rather than chance us going through the checkpoints with our passports, it issued us with government passes. It was unbelievable to walk down the Unter den Linden, which is in eastern Berlin, and to see the bullet holes that had been left in the wall to commemorate the Russians taking the city. I did that on a lovely May day with my jacket slung over my shoulder as I went to visit the British delegation. No one in a black leather jacket followed me, tried to tap my conversations or eavesdrop. It was amazing to see people going about their daily business and the lines of Trabants queuing to fill up to avoid increased petrol costs due to currency unification. It was amazing to see the President of Russia at the D-day ceremony last weekend, although it was right for him to be there. It is also amazing to see the role that Russia is now playing in world affairs, not least at the UN yesterday. It is time to stop the nonsense and the silly things that have been going on.
	The leader of the Arctic convoy veterans, Commander Grenfell, received a letter from a civil servant, Mr. Sinfield, the head of DS Secretary (Secretariat), dated 9 October 2002. It says:
	Dr Moonie did not tell Mr McWilliam that, if appropriate, he would make a recommendation to the
	Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals
	to fully consider the request.
	Of course, that is a Cabinet Sub-Committee rather than a committee of the Ministry of Defence or the Foreign Office. The letter continues:
	He said that, if a request were forthcoming, such a recommendation would be made. I should emphasise that the recommendation referred to is to consider the request, not to make a particular decision either way. It would be for the FCO to refer the matter to the HD Committee.
	That would have been all right, but on 11 September 2002 my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Mn (Albert Owen) received a letter from my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), who was then a Minister at the Foreign Office. The letter said:
	However, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office would support the issue of such medals to the Arctic convoy veterans and is recommending to the MOD that an exception to these rules should be made.
	There is a complete bureaucratic muddle. If the then Minister could make such a request, why did he make it to the Ministry of Defence rather than the Cabinet Sub-Committee? Why did he submit it to the MOD, with which we are having the argument? That is like having a fight with the wife and asking one's mother-in-law to adjudicateit is silly.
	What is going on? It cannot be the cost, which must be minute compared with that for the Suez medal because so few of the men are still alive. The veterans' calculation is 670,000.

Mike Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is slightly mistaken about the cost. I believe that that applies to the Ministry of Defence, tooits estimate was 14 million, which is staggering and unbelievable. The hon. Gentleman is right to pursue the lack of joined-up government. The figures should be questioned.

John McWilliam: The sum of 14 million was mentioned to the veterans but the medal manufacturers reckoned that the cost would be approximately 670,000. If the hon. Gentleman wants to add a few thousand pounds for administration, that is fine.
	I want to underline my point about the politics of the matter, which the hon. Member for New Forest, East also mentioned. I received a letter from the then Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Dr. Moonie) in August 2002. It states:
	An approach was made by the Russian authorities in the early 1980s when their 40th Anniversary of Victory in the Great Patriotic War Medal (also known more commonly as the Russian Convoy Medal) was offered to British ex-Servicemen by the Russian authorities. Originally instituted in 1985 and offered to British veterans shortly afterwards, permission was not granted for it to be accepted and worn at that time. Some years later, further official approaches by the Russians to the British Government through the Foreign and Commonwealth Office were reconsidered. In 1994, the Queen
	I am quoting from a letter; otherwise I would not use that expression
	granted permission for this medal to be accepted and worn by eligible British citizens. This was considered acceptable in the light of changed circumstances in Russia since the medal was first issued.
	We therefore have it from the Ministry of Defence that there was a significant change in circumstances. There has been enough pussyfooting. Let us honour those brave men, recognise their sacrifice and huge contribution to victory in the second world war, and give them their campaign star.

Mike Hancock: Let me take hon. Members back to the beginning of this afternoon's debate and the Minister's rightly long introduction about the celebrations to commemorate the 60th anniversary of D-day. As someone who was heavily involved in the 50th anniversary celebrations in this country and in France, I felt that, once again, both sides of the channel had done justice to the veterans. I was therefore sad that the Minister chose not to acknowledge the huge commitmentfinancially and in hospitalitythat the people of the city of Caen, the region of Normandy and the French Government offered to the veterans, their families and others who crossed the channel. It was a mistake that the Minister chose not to thank them for the enormous amount of work that went in to making the celebration and the commemoration such a meaningful event.
	I know from personal experience of working with the governments of the city of Caen and of Lower Normandy for the 50th anniversary and, to some extent, on the celebrations on this side of the channel for the 60th anniversary, about the amazing amount of work that goes into ensuring that things move smoothly and swiftly. Wherever possible, every effort was made to accommodate the needs of the veterans. It is to the veterans' credit that they rightly acknowledge the hospitality and the warmth of the welcome that they receive every time that they go to Normandy. The people of France, especially in Normandy, have never forgotten the debt that they owe. They witness it every day along the streets and the byways in the countryside of Normandy when they pass the allied graves, which are sadly so numerous.

Ivor Caplin: In my day in France on Friday, I took the opportunity to thank the various mayors and the prefecture of the Lower Normandy region for their help and support. Indeed, in the meeting with the French Minister for veterans, I made clear on behalf of Her Majesty's Government our thanks for the help that we had received from the French Government during the preparations for that weekend.
	Having done that in France, I felt that I should reflect more this afternoon on the actions of our own United Kingdom staff, including members of our armed forces.

Mike Hancock: I thank the Minister for his comments. It is right and proper that that was done, and I was sure that it would have been done, if not by him then by the Prime Minister. I am delighted that the Minister has now put the record straight in the House. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the people of my own city, who did a great deal, over three days, to offer hospitality, good will and all possible assistance to the veterans. Close on 50,000 people took part in the various activities last weekend in and around the city of Portsmouth, and we are mighty proud of our continuing association with the Normandy veterans and of the rightful recognition that people on both sides of the channel give them.
	It is not often that we are privileged enough to have four real heroes in our presence, but we have that privilege today. Four members of the Arctic convoy campaign groupEddie Grenfell, Dave Nash, John Hobbs and Frank Sanders, all from the Portsmouth areahave come to the House today to listen to this debate. They travelled here in the optimistic hope that there would be a change of heart on the part of the Government. They have been campaigning for many years, and their ages add up to well over 300 years. Their service to the nation in the Royal Navy in various forms ranges from six to more than 30 years' commitment. All of them gave valiant service, such as that described by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam), in the Arctic convoy campaigns, and several of them made more than one trip.
	Many of the Royal Navy veterans whom the Minister met on the beaches at Arromanches last weekend were sailors who wore the Atlantic Star with pride. However, they were unable to wear with pride the medal that they should have received for the part that they played in the Arctic convoys. Instead, many of them wore with amazing pride the medal presented to them by the Russian Government. How right the hon. Member for Blaydon was to expose the shabby and shameless way in which those people have been treated. At first, the Government even resisted giving the men permission to wear the medal that the Russian people wanted them to have, but then allowed them to wear it when circumstances changed. That is the case here, is it not? Circumstances have changed. Perhaps only one or two Members here today will be able to remember a time when Russia was not perceived as the No. 1 enemy of this nation, but things have moved on. That is the only possible reason why those men were denied the justice and recognition that they deserved in 1946. There is no excuse for allowing this situation to continue.
	I said in an intervention earlier that this matter was not an example of joined-up government. The hon. Member for Blaydon pointed out that one Department, the Foreign Office, advocated the award of that medal. I must also mention two senior members of the Government: the Home Secretary and the Chairman of the Labour partyalso a Cabinet Minister. I should like to quote the Chairman of the Labour party, who visited my constituency recently in an effort to boost Labour's chances in the European elections. He said that he understood the merits of this case, and that Arctic veterans were fully deserving of this recognition. He stated:
	Following my visit to Portsmouth, I will take this matter up with the defence secretary.
	How can the present situation be right, when Members on both sides of the House, including the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of my party and two members of Her Majesty's Cabinet, support the justice of this case? A number of Labour Members have pointed to the justice of those men's case and said that the medal should be awarded.

Bob Russell: Does my hon. Friend recall that there was a similar obstruction to the Suez canal zone medal? Could quite simply the four worthy heroes not resolve this matter by seeking an audience with the Prime Minister? Quite clearly, he is the one who gave the go-ahead for the Suez medal.

Mike Hancock: How I wish that it were so easy to arrange. I went with the Arctic veterans, along with two other Members of the House, to Downing street. What did we get? We got as far as the front door, which was enough to hand over a petition signed by 44,000 people and supported by my local newspaper, The News, which has led this campaign for justice.
	How nice it would have been if a Minister had agreed to meet those veterans. It would have been nice if the Minister had met them in this country in his office. He met some of them when he shook hands on the beaches in France, but they were not offered hospitality when they asked for a meeting with a Minister two years ago and again last year.
	I plead with the Minister not to sit back and rely on the answers given in previous debates. This is a simple request from people who put their lives on the line and who deserve the justice that the House knows they deserve. The only people saying no to themI am sure he is not saying noare bureaucrats who have forgotten the plot when it comes to honouring the heroes of this country. It is not too late to say, We made a mistake and let's do it. Things have changed.
	While we are discussing medals, I want to ask the Minister to give a firm assurance that every effort will be made to speed up the process of issuing the Suez medal. He was quick to say that the Prime Minister overturned the original decision, but it took a long time for him to have that change of heart. Time and again, Members of the House pleaded with Departments of State to do something to recognise the Suez campaign and the efforts of the men and women who took part in it. Like them, I am disappointed.
	I was told as recently as yesterday that one of the reasons for the delay is the insufficiency of people who can properly engrave the medals. That is the excuse, but surely those people who have waited 50 years for this recognition should not have to wait another two years for the medal that is due to them. I hope we can make progress.

Bob Russell: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the vast majority of the men who served in the Suez canal zone were national servicemen? They were conscripted into the Army and sent there; they were not volunteers. If they have to wait upwards of another two years, they will have had to wait longer for the medal than they served in the Army.

Mike Hancock: Once again, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is a great pity that we do not treat these issues with the speed and importance that they deserve. The decision was taken, so all the stops should be pulled out to ensure that those medals are issued quickly.

Peter Luff: I think I am right in saying that Gosport is in the hon. Gentleman's constituency.

Mike Hancock: No.

Peter Luff: I beg his pardon. The Government's contribution to speeding up the issuing of the Suez canal zone medal is to close the Army medal office and the two medal offices in Gosport, risking the loss of all that expertise. Those men and women are anxious to deliver the medal punctually, but they will all be lost to the service.

Mike Hancock: I agree with the hon. Gentleman entirely. It is a great pity that there is not greater recognition and understanding of the efforts of the men and women in those departments. Should not they at least be kept on for the next three years, as he suggests? I am sure that there will be a change in relation to the Arctic medal. In the end, the moral case will prevail and the Minister will come to the House to say, The Prime Minister has had a change of heart.
	The only alternative is for all those veterans and their families to vote Tory, because the Tories have said that if they come to office they will issue the medal.
	People should not have to do that. It should not be an issue in relation to people voting Tory, but they have an incentive to do so. We would support it because of the justice of the case, and we do not need to be in government to recognise that. Had we been in government, the veterans would have had the medal in 1946. If we were in government today, they would not have to campaign. We will support whoever decides to give the medal, because it will be the right decision.
	I want to speak about some other issues, which the Minister touched on without going into specifics. I am delighted that a Minister from the Department of Health will wind up the debate, because one of the biggest issues facing veterans and their families at present is Gulf war syndrome. I want to read out a letter from a Gulf war veteran, with whom I have been working for the last three and a half years and with whom I must have corresponded 100 times. He wrote to me on 1 May:
	I am writing to  . . . inform you, that I have as from the 01 May 2004 . . . endured myself upon a hunger strike. This is a last desperate attempt upon my behalf in trying to force the Ministry of Defence to tell the truth regarding my suffered illness of Gulf War Syndrome.
	Not only have I thought about my actions for some months . . . I have deliberately chosen the 01 May 2004 due to the fact that it is my 34 birthday. I am somewhat saddened, more so heart broken that the country I once loved has abandoned me and driven me, more so my desperation for recognition of my condition to such drastic measures.
	That is from Alexander Izett. He featured on the Today programme yesterday, because his health has deteriorated considerably. He is close to having to be taken to hospital, and recently signed papers refusing any sort of medical treatment. As a young soldier of 20-odd years, he went to take part in the first Gulf war. He was given a cocktail of injections, and the MOD cannot tell him what they were. He is convinced that the illness that prevailed a few weeks after his service in the Gulf was completed has wrecked not only his life but his family's life. He is not taking this action for himself, however. He is doing it for his generation of servicemen who took part in the first Gulf war and for their families. Some of those have already died and some have suffered unimaginable pain and suffering.
	I hope that the Government will do something to recognise Mr. Izett's case. They are not ignorant of itI have written several times to several Ministers about the case, and they have written back to me as recently as 19 May. Many other Members of the House are actively involved in the campaign. If we are to tackle the issue of veterans and their problems, we must treat the individual case as well as glad-handing the majority of people.

Julian Brazier: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making such a powerful case. Does he agree that the Royal British Legion is right to point to Gulf war syndrome as a particularly striking example of how raising the burden of proof in compensation claims would make a mockery of the hopes of such people?

Mike Hancock: The hon. Gentleman knows that he has my fullest support. On an individual basis, I would think that the majority of Members of the House are fully behind him. The shifting of the burden of proof is a serious mistake that does nothing for the veterans' cause, and it should have been the No. 1 goal of any Minister responsible for veterans not to get that through the House. He should have rejected it and recommended refusal to Members of the House. He lost a great opportunity in that regard. Of course, it will make the plight of Alexander Izett and other such people much more difficult.
	Let me give another example of how individuals and families are affected. The Minister mentioned this, but did not go into detail. A young soldier from the Portsmouth area was killed in Bosnia. Simon Jeans is the name, a name that has appeared in many newspapers because for many years Simon's father Terry has campaigned in an attempt to bring the culpritsthose responsible for his son's murderto justice.
	Because Simon was married at the time of his death and his German-born wife was his next of kin, the MOD does not support his father's request to be at the trial and witness the final chapter in this sad saga of the taking of a young soldier's life in such tragic circumstances. His father cannot have the satisfaction of closure. The cost would probably have been less than 2,000, yet the MOD, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have refused to budge and to give Mr. Jeans that satisfaction. They have continually used the fact that he was not the next of kin. Simon's former wife has remarried and moved on: she has been able to have closure, but his father has not. If, as the Minister suggested, we truly reflect when dealing with veterans' affairs a duty of care not just to veterans but to their families, surely Mr. Jeans is entitled to that duty of care, and we should do all that we can to help him go to Croatia to see the end of the case.
	Another injustice, which has continued for more than 50 years, is shown in the case of the nuclear test veterans. I saw that group of veterans in their blazers in Portsmouth at Sunday's remembrance service, and I saw the television coverage. They are Normandy veterans and nuclear test veterans. Where is the Minister's concern for their plight? How sad it is that Labour Ministers have simply followed the same line as their Conservative predecessors, and ignored those men's claims relating to the enormous risks that they were put through in the name of military technology and developments in the 1950s and 1960s. Once again it is out of sight, out of mindbut those men are not out of sight and out of mind to their families, who see them deteriorating daily because of the effects of those nuclear tests.
	Men and women who have served in our armed forces and our naval bases die each week from asbestos-related conditions. How nice it would have been if the veterans Minister had come here today and said, I will allocate Ministry of Defence money to supporting those suffering from proven asbestos-related conditions and their families.
	Let us suppose that the only occupation of a worker in a naval dockyard from the age of 15 to the age of 50 is as a lagger, cutting asbestos from pipes or lagging them with it. The chances of his contracting an asbestos-related illness in any other way will be pretty remote. The MOD, however, does not accept that all such cases are connected with work that people have done for it. It continually battles with individuals who seek justice. Time and again, coroners reporting on the sad deaths of such men and women reflect on the need for the Government to get a grip and not just support families after their loved ones are dead, but help people have a better life while they are living. A veterans Minister with any credibility would do just that.
	Many Members have mentioned the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre, and I do not want to add much to what they have said; but I am disappointed that the Minister and the MOD have again denied justice to those two pilots and their families. I think it was all too easy to leave the blame there, but things have changed now. If that accident happened today, the pilots would not be held responsible.
	How can it be right that memories of those two men should be scarred in that way? How right it would have been if the veterans Minister, who has a duty of care not only to the living but to the memory of the dead, had said today, We shall look at it again and reverse that decision. A former Prime Minister has said that he was wrong. For goodness sake, surely the House owes it to those men, to their memory and, most of all, to their families to get it right.

Tam Dalyell: Is not part of the problem, albeit only part of it, that the officials who took the original decisions have either been promoted or have retired? The present officials must look at documents from the past, rather than exercise a judgment. Of course, it has now come to light that the officials of the time appearwe cannot know the detail but it goes back to Lord Jaunceynot to have been entirely frank with the then Secretary of State, Malcolm Rifkind.

Mike Hancock: I agree entirely. The Father of the House has desperately tried time and again to get recognition of that point. The former Secretary of State for Defence has made it clear that he got it wrong and that, had he been aware of the information that is available now, he would have overruled that decision. He has had the courage to say that. It is not often that politicians have the courage to say that they got it wrong.
	The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that the officials have either retired or been promoted. The Secretary of State should have the courage to say, I shall not allow that mistake to continue. As the democratically elected principal head of the MOD, I will overturn that decision. That is what the public expect him to do, irrespective of the points made by bureaucrats or former air marshals about the merits of the case. The Secretary of State must know that there is a compelling case to which he should respond.
	This debate has been useful. The Minister got plaudits from hon. Members on both sides of the House. They were well deserved for this weekend's performance probably, but I am not as generous as those who say that he is the best veterans Minister that we have ever had. We have only had two and the first one was a slightly difficult character to do business with. We should leave it at that. Nevertheless, he was a fair person.
	I hope that, when he leaves office, the Minister will have the feeling that the House and veterans in the wider community are congratulating him not on the organisation of a commemorative event, important though that is, but on his commitment to veterans as individuals and to their families; on his commitment to natural justice, whether it is the award of a medal or proper compensation for accident or injury; and on his commitment that their families will be properly taken care of and their housing needs met.
	It is a national scandal that the MOD still controls empty houses while ex-servicemen struggle to find somewhere to live in the same area. It is not just about Addington Homes; it is about how the MOD handles the housing issue. It needs to be more understanding and generous to its personnel and their families, because it has a duty of care to those inside and outside the service.
	If, when the Minister leaves office, veterans queue up to pat him on the back and say, Thank you; as an individual, you did a great service to the veterans' cause, I will have been wrong this afternoon and hon. Members who praised him will have been right. But I fear that we have a long way to go before the majority of veterans say that.

Robert Wareing: There is no doubt that one of the greatest stories of the second world war is that of the role played by the Merchant Navy, which suffered 30,189 deaths, 4,402 wounded and 5,264 missing. I offer no apology for returning to the subject raised time and again in this debate, of the worst test of the Merchant Navy's courage in having to suffer the hazards of the Arctic convoy route. There was the continual strain not only of the blizzards, ice and snow but of the relentless air and underwater menace. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam) spelled out what that meant.
	These men sailed in snowstorms, often in semi-darkness, as in that part of the world it can be pitch black for 24 hours, in sub-zero temperatures, sometimes as low as minus 40, and often with the spray from near misses from enemy bombs hitting the deck as ice. The 194145 Arctic campaign involved taking supplies of weapons, food, fuel and other resources to aid the red army in its courageous fight against the Nazis, which saved us. As has been said, without their bravery, D-day would have been impossible. Imagine what would have happened had the Soviet Union succumbed to the Nazi onslaught. I was struck by what the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) said about his discussion with Betty Boothroyd, who said that she thought she would not have survived the second world war had the Russians succumbed.
	When I look around the Chamber, I ask myself how many chaps, like me, actually lived through the second world war. I do not think that there are more than one or two. I lived for 14 months, in the period between the fall of France and the invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941, night after night in an air raid shelter at the bottom of the garden. Liverpool, like London, was constantly blitzed.

John McWilliam: I must have been the only baby who was evacuated to London. I was taken to London by my parents in 1942, when my father was sent to repair bomb damage to main cables, and I lived not far from Battersea power station, which was a major target.

Robert Wareing: I have never heard of anyone being evacuated to Londonclearly, someone had it in for my hon. Friend.
	I lived on the wrong side of the ring road in Liverpool, beyond which one did not get evacuated, so I remained throughout the Blitz. The worst part was in the first eight days of May 1941, when we were bombed for eight consecutive nights.
	I can remember more about those eight nights than I can about any eight nights in just the past week or so.
	Such was the importance of the contribution of the red army that once the Nazis had turned their onslaught against the Soviet Union, our lives became much easier. Yes, there were some air raid warnings from time to timethe last was as late as December 1944, when it was feared that a V1 might come towards Merseyside. We were fortunate in that regard; it was the poor people of London who suffered from the V1s and V2s. They bore the brunt of that. But from the time when the Nazis turned their forces eastwards, our lives became easier. This might be difficult to appreciate now, but people in Liverpool used continually to say, Thank God for the red army! I grew up with the feeling that we owed it a debt. Indeed, I remember going to the cinema and seeing Lord Beaverbrook speak in Trafalgar square. Not many Tory politicians actually speak in Trafalgar square, but he did. I remember him saying that we must never forget the debt that we owed to the red army and to the Russian people.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon referred to the siege of Leningrad, and it was that sort of heroism that carried Russia through the war and saved us. Of course, the Russians did not do that on their own. They depended to a considerable extent on the assistance that our people were giving through the Arctic convoys. I am pleased that the Portsmouth edition of The News took up the cudgels on behalf of the Last Chance for Justice campaign, because Portsmouth is the home of the Royal Navy. However, the people who sailed in the convoys were not only of the Royal Navy, and they did not come only from Portsmouth. I have a list of people from Liverpool who are still alive today and who served in the Royal Navy and the mercantile marine in those convoys, throughout that period.

John McWilliam: I hesitate to interrupt my hon. Friend on such an important point, but is he aware that the difference between the mercantile marine and the Royal Navy at the time was that when a merchant ship went down, the crew's pay ceased immediately? Their families had nothing to rely on, and if a sailor ended up in a Russian hospital for six or eight months, there was nothing.

Robert Wareing: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says. Of course, that time in hospital was not taken into account for any medal whateverit would not even have qualified towards the Atlantic star, which those people were offered.
	Throughout that time, the convoys sailed again and again with more than 3.5 million tonnes of war material to Murmansk and Archangel, while the red army, to use Winston Churchill's words, was
	tearing the guts out of the Nazi war machine.
	Yet despite the valour of our seamen in the Arctic convoy campaign, they are still refused the reward that they originally deserved. Reference has been made to the Russians showing their admiration of our seamen for their sacrifices by awarding them a commemoration medal. I was pleased to meet, with the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), some of those veterans outside this place. The Russian medals that they were wearing were very distinctive, because Russian medal ribbons are rather different from those that we produce in Britain. Those veterans were wearing the medals very proudly. I am sure that they would be even prouder to be able to say that they had been honoured by their own country, but our country denies them that honour.
	Explanation has already been given as to why the Atlantic star could be awarded only to the crews of some half dozen ships of the 670 that sailed in the Arctic waters. Many of the young people who served in the Merchant Navy in those horrendous conditionswe should remember that in those days, the school leaving age was 14would have been 15 or 16.
	I wonder whether any other Members have experienced the winds that blow in the north cape. I was fortunate enough to spend part of a holiday there during a parliamentary recess, when there was constant daylight. The winds take one's breath away, even in mid-summer. Imagine what those winds are like in the middle of winter, with temperatures of minus 40.
	Apart from the severe winter conditions, the Arctic convoys faced constant harassment from enemy bases in occupied Norway. In addition to its bombs and torpedoes, the Luftwaffe dropped mines ahead of the convoys. There was the constant danger of the big ships, such as the Tirpitz, coming out of Norwegian ports to overwhelm all but the heaviest escorts. For example, on 2 July 1942, 38 merchant ships were attacked by the Tirpitz, and by aircraft and U-boats, in the area between the north cape and Spitzbergen. Some 829 British and allied Merchant seamen lost their lives on that route. Forty-one convoys went into Murmansk and Archangel with supplies. They were never more than 300 miles away from an enemy coastline studded with bomber bases. Only in that area could that be said of any convoy route.
	Some 792 ships sailed outward and 627.8 per cent.were lost. Some 739 ships sailed home and 283.8 per cent.were lost. As I pointed out in an intervention on the hon. Member for New Forest, East, in the Atlantic, on the other hand, fewer than 1 per cent. of ships were lost. I am not belittling the battle of the Atlantic, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman misunderstood me earlier in this regard. Indeed, the battle headquarters was in Liverpool, so I by no means dishonour the memory of those who served in it. But there was a real difference, as I hope my explanation shows.
	On the Arctic run, the Royal Navy lost two cruisers, six destroyers, three corvettes, three minesweepers and 1,840 men. Thirty per cent. of one convoy that sailed past the north cape was lost to U-boats and enemy aircraft. Charles Jarman, the then Secretary of the National Union of Seamen, told of an Arctic convoy of 40 ships, only three of which reached Murmansk.
	Veterans have fought for their rights for decades, as we know. The Last Chance for Justice campaign was launched on 5 January and has been promoted by Portsmouth's The News. My own local press would support that campaign completely.
	So far, however, there has been no positive response from the Government. If he had been allowed to get away with it, the Minister would have ignored the problem completely this afternoon. It was only when the matter was raised in this place that any consideration was given to this particular scandalthe lack of support for decent people who were willing to give their all, as some did, for the freedom of this country and the world. The cost of 14 million was mentioned, with others arguing that it could be only 0.5 million. I say, so what? My God, we spend more than that on this building every summer on work that often does not really need to be done. We could find 14 million quite easily.
	The Government might ask for a little bit longer and then say that it all happened more than 50 or 60 years ago and the people involved are dying. Perhaps they would like to wait still longer for more people to die so that there would no longer be a campaign. If that is the Government's attitude, I think that it is disgusting.

Mike Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is making a very important point. There are currently just about 2,000 survivors left out of the tens of thousandsI believe that there were about 30,000 crew memberswho served on those ships. We are running short of time to secure justice for those people, but the story will not end when the last one is dead, because their families will continue the fight, as will hon. Members in the House.

Robert Wareing: May I say that they would be quite right to do so? I would remind the Government, in case they think that time will somehow see the problem disappear, of what happened in 1853. Queen Victoria awarded a Royal Navy campaign medal, 38 years after Napoleon's final defeat at the battle of Waterloo. We should bear in mind the fact that life expectancy today is far greater than it was in 1853. My hope is that many of the 2,000 people to whom the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South referred will remain alive for many more years to come. [Hon. Members: Hear, hear.] I hope that, before they depart from this planet, they will enjoy recognition by their country.
	I suspect that it is not all simply the Minister's fault. I suspect that civil servants in the Humphrey style are saying that this is not the sort of thing that we usually do. [Interruption.] Sir Humphreyyes, we must give him his rightful honour, and he probably had his medal as well. There is a typical Sir Humphrey style and I can imagine civil servants telling the Minister that it is not the sort of thing that the Department does, that it all happened a long time ago, that precedent has to be considered, and so on and so forth.
	I certainly hope that the Minister is in command of his Department. It is always useful for anyone who is to be a Minister and serve in a Government to read chapter 14 of Anthony Sampson's Anatomy of Britain. He says that there are two types of Minister: the Minister who controls his Department, and the Minister who is controlled by his Department. I would like to think that the Minister in charge at the moment is one of the former rather than the latter Ministers. [Interruption.]

Julian Lewis: rose

Peter Luff: rose

Julian Brazier: rose

Sydney Chapman: rose

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Can we establish what the hon. Gentleman is doing?

Robert Wareing: I am giving way to the hon. Member for New Forest, East.

Julian Lewis: Briefly, Portsmouth's The News was particularly upset about the fact that the Prime Minister promised that he would personally look into the matter and review it, but the review was carried out in the Ministry of Defence by the same two civil servants who were advising Ministers to say no all along. This time round, Ministers, if not the Prime Minister, should look into the matter personally.

Robert Wareing: I completely agree. A petition of 44,000 signatures was submitted to 10 Downing street about two weeks ago. The Prime Minister has indicated that he is willing to look at it, and I hope that he does so. His position is very difficult, but the matter is worth looking at.

Mike Hancock: I do not want the hon. Gentleman to misinform the House, as the Prime Minister said no to that further review. He did not say yes, but that he would stick by the decision that had been taken. That is the great sadness.

Robert Wareing: I was under the impression that the Prime Minister was giving the matter some consideration. However, so many representations have been made from hon. Members of all parties in this debate that it is clear that the issue arouses strong feelings. When he replies to the debate, I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health will say that he will take the matter on board. I know that he may not be able to promise anything today, but we are asking that the people involved receive the consideration that they deserve. The Arctic convoys helped the Russians to help us. If there had been a collapse in the east, D-day would never have happened.
	My hon. Friend the Minister, who opened the debate, referred to the document prepared by his Department for hon. Members. I was pleased by that reference, as it is a very useful piece of work. I am glad that further such documents will be produced, on other issues. I note that the Minister begins his foreword to the document by quoting the words of Winston Churchill, who said:
	A nation that forgets its past has no future.
	How right Churchill was.

Sydney Chapman: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing). I welcome this debate very much, and it may help the hon. Gentleman, and the House, to know that I am a Tory who has spoken on a number of occasions in Trafalgar square. However, I remain an ambitious politician, and do not want my side to know on which occasions I did so.
	The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby said that there were two sorts of Ministerthose in control of their Departments, and those notbut I was a Minister for six and a half years and I had no Department at all. That must have reflected a certain lack of confidence in my skills, whatever they might have been. Finallyand I say this with some trepidationI am a Member of Parliament who was born well before world war two broke out.
	I counted it a great honour to be invited to be an official guest at last Sunday's commemorative events in Normandy. I have made some calculations about who attended. Four Ministers were there, including the Prime Minister andquite properlythe Minister with responsibility for veterans' affairs, the hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Caplin). My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition was there, as were the shadow Secretary of State for Defence, the leader of the Liberal Democrats and that party's defence spokesman, the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Keetch). Also present were the Chairman of the Select Committee on Defenceand me.
	I did not know whether the Government made a mistake in inviting me, although mistakes are well known in ministerial circles. Perhaps they thought I was a Normandy veteran, but I hope that the reason for my invitation was that I instituted a debate on dealing with the commemorative aspects of the 60th anniversary celebrations of the D-day landings. I am very grateful for having the opportunity to go there.
	I have come to praise the Minister who opened the debate. I shall not spare his blushes, as I believe that there has been a change in Government policy.
	There was, as the Minister will know, a debate in Westminster Hall on 11 November last, when he ruled out providing monetary assistance for D-day veterans. He said:
	It has also been suggested that the Government could provide financial assistance to veterans for their transport and accommodation expenses. It would not be possibleneither would it be fairto be seen to provide assistance for one anniversary or group of veterans and not another.[Official Report, Westminster Hall, 11 November 2003; Vol. 413, c. 2930WH.]
	However, in my Adjournment debate, he was able to say that
	direct financial assistance is now available through the New Opportunities Fund[Official Report, Westminster Hall, 25 February 2004; Vol. 418, c. 94WH.]
	I applaud the Minister for that change of heart. He gives a good name to doing a U-turn. He changed his mind not out of any defensiveness or weakness, but to show magnanimity, and I applaud him for that.
	The Heroes Return Fund was launched on 9 February to provide travel cost assistance to people going to commemorate the 60th anniversary of D-day and visiting other countries where veterans served in the second world war. I also welcome the introduction of the free passports for those aged 75 and over. I also welcome the Veterans Reunited programme, through which children have the chance to join veterans in commemorating events. I applaud the Government for those initiatives and I hope that both sides of the House will join me in doing so.
	I was deeply moved when I attended three particular events last Sunday. It was a long day for me, although I have no doubt that for the people involved 60 years before it was the longest day of their lives. The service in Bayeux cemetery was attended by Her Majesty the Queen and President Chirac of France. As I went through the entrance, I passed some gravestones. The first gave a name and continued:
	Died 6 June 1944, aged 20.
	The next one gave an age of 18. Those gravestones brought home to me the tragedy of what happened as well as the glory of the dedication and service given by our troops.
	Then we moved on, as the Minister will know, to the international gathering on the hilltop at Arromanches, attended by 17 heads of state, including Her Majesty the Queen, President Chirac, President Bush and President Putin. I was delighted to see that Herr Schrder, the Chancellor of Germany, was also present. The third event was the UK-onlyif I may put it that wayevent in Arromanches town square, facing the beach, at which Her Majesty the Queen reviewed the 800 or so veterans as they marched past. That was a hugely moving occasion.
	I also had the opportunity during the day to meet some Barnet members of the Normandy Veterans Association, including the chairman of the north London branch, Mr. Terry Burton. I am proud to have such people as my constituents, as we all are. We have deep gratitude for the sacrifices made by so many people. As Her Majesty the Queen said, there are 22,000 Commonwealth graves in Normandy alone.
	I would like to quote something that I felt compelled to write after the event.
	One of the most pleasing aspects of the celebrations was the perception of the younger generations. I believe that the 60th anniversary celebrations have awakened their interest, and that they properly appreciate the huge sacrifices made for their liberty. They will also realise the full ghastliness of war and the futility of wasted lives. This must give us extra resolve to avoid war if we possibly can, but at the same time, this anniversary shows that there are times when we must stand up against tyranny.
	Though this will probably be the last major celebration in Normandy, we must continue, through the services that will be held in our own country, to remember those who fought for our country. The sacrifices made by the thousands of men and women who fought in Normandy mean Britain and Europe continue to enjoy freedom from tyranny.
	I welcome the appointment of a Minister for veterans' affairs and the initiatives taken so far. They are only a start but the Government have made a good move. I welcome, too, the Public Accounts Committee's call for speedier pension pay-outs for war veterans, and the idea of lapel badges. They will be a source of pride for the many veterans who want to wear them and will, in time, give greater public recognition; if only inquisitively, some younger people may ask, What is that badge?
	I want to comment briefly on some topical issues. The first is the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill. I do not want to revisit all the arguments, but I ask the Government to consider three points. The first is the deadline for pension applications regarding disabilities attributable to service in the armed forces. I am critical of the proposal to reduce the period from seven years after leaving the service to five years from the incident. Will the Government think again about that?
	Secondly, will the Government also think again about the change proposed in the Bill on the standard of proof? The proposed change is from beyond reasonable doubt to
	on the balance of probabilities.
	Will the Government consider seriously the point made by the Royal British Legion that such a change could cut the number of applications by up to 50 per cent? I realise that the Government do not accept that figure, but I ask them to look into the likely effects of a change.
	Finally, in relation to the Bill, there is no question but that some widows face great hardship, which could be remedied without spending too much moneynot that that should be the benchmark for whether they should be helped. I remind the Minister that in the last year alone the number of those widows fell from 48,000 to 46,000.
	Like many other Members, I want to touch on Gulf war syndrome. As has been mentioned, one possible cause is the cocktail of vaccinations that was given to members of the armed services before they left for the first Gulf war. They seem to have been vaccinated against everything from anthrax to yellow fever, sometimes only 24 hours before their departure. In some cases, the vaccinations led to a number of conditions, including osteoporosis and depression. Either it is wrong to give multiple injections over a short period or such a cocktail of vaccinations compounds the remote chance of adverse side effects.
	Of course, I realise that there are other possible causes of Gulf war syndrome: depleted uranium poisoning, the pesticides used to control flies, and pollution from oil fires. However, although I have no medical qualifications, my gut feeling is that the cocktail of vaccinations was probably the main contender, simply due to the fact that some men who received the vaccinations were affected even though they did not go to the Gulf. Will the Government continue to inquire into the matter?
	It would be a fool who did not add his voice to the request that the Government look again at the award of the Arctic convoy medal. I have sympathy for Ministers; if they make an exception and bring in a medal, the floodgates will open. However, the evidence is so overwhelming in this case that I certainly give my support to the issue of an Arctic convoy medal.
	Perhaps more importantly, because I want to be constructive, I believe that we need a new policy on the award of medals in future. Ideally, that policy should be understandable, unambiguous, rational and acceptable. If it is possible to achieve that, I would give the Government my full support in reviewing the issue. In this day and age, when awards are made or medals are struck, we should consider the role of civilians, as well as the armed services, in armed conflict.
	I was interested to hear the Minister's wide-ranging definition of veterans, which embraced about 13 million people. It is more comfortable to belong to a bigger minority than a smaller one. The way in which we treat our veteransthe soldiers, sailors and airmen of yesteryearis not unrelated to the recruitment and retention of our armed forces personnel today. They are entitled to have confidence that when they have given service to our country, they will not be forgotten; and if they give their lives in the service of our country, we have a special obligation to their widows and loved ones.

David Borrow: Ten years ago, when the celebrations for the 50th anniversary of D-day were taking place, it was felt that that would be the last major celebration. It was only when servicemen and women began to object to holding fairly low-key 60th anniversary celebrations that the public bodies respondedas they did magnificentlyto the demands for major celebrations this year. I congratulate the Ministry of Defence and all those who were involved in those celebrations. It has been mooted that the 60th anniversary should be the last major celebration. That may be so, but it would be wise to wait and see what celebrations the servicemen and women who took part this year want in 10 years' time.
	I want to speak mainly, but not entirely, about veterans other than those of the second world war. I was interested to hear about how the Minister sees veterans. The young men and women who walk into recruitment offices this week and sign up to join Her Majesty's services will be the veterans of tomorrow, whether they serve for only a few years or their whole working life. The vast majority will have careers outside the armed forces. It is crucial for the Ministry of Defence and for us here in Parliament to recognise that the period that people spend in the armed forces, however long or short, is very special, because we ask very special things of those who join Her Majesty's armed forces. We ask them not only to put their lives at risk, but to give up many of the rights and freedoms that those of us in civilian life take for granted and enjoy. We expect them to move from one end of the world to another at the drop of a hat, to come back from operations and turn round to go somewhere else, and to disrupt their family life and put it on hold. We expect them to be treated in a way that people in civilian life would never accept.
	That is crucially important if we are to have an effective and well-oiled military machineit is part of the deal that is done. However, I sometimes think that the Ministry of Defence gets into a mindset whereby it assumes that when those men and women leave the armed forces they can continue to be treated in the same way as they were as servicemen and women.
	That is why I so much welcome the establishment of a Minister for veterans. As a constituency MP dealing with a variety of cases involving ex-servicemen and women over the past seven years, I have noticed that the Ministry of Defence often has a jobsworth approach to such issues. It is often obstructive, and treats such people as it would expect a serving soldier or sailor to be treated.
	It is important to change the culture within the MOD; that is one reason why it is so important to have a Minister for veterans. When someone comes towards the end of their service they should be treated properly, and there should be proper planning for their career when they leave. I welcome some of the initiatives that have been taken over the last couple of years, especially the career transition partnership, the work being planned for early leavers, and what is being done with projects such as Project Compass. Such projects are important, and I am sure that all Members in the Chamber will have had constituents with major social problems after their service with the armed forces, who are struggling because they are homeless or have not been able to settle down properly into civilian life.
	It is crucial that the Ministry of Defence recognises that its responsibility does not end the moment that somebody leaves the service of their country, and that we have an ongoing responsibility. For many of the reasons that have been raised in the debate, that responsibility needs to be there in the long term, after military service is over.
	I sense that what happens in a small case when someone leaves the service is likely to be repeated on a larger scale. I am in dialogue with the Minister at the moment about such a case, involving a constituent of mine with long service, who was not treated very well when he left. The same jobsworth attitude is often to be seen: It doesn't conform to the rules, or It'll set a precedent, so it will be very difficult to do that, Minister.

Julian Brazier: The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting point. It is surely no criticism of the current Minister, who is energetic in his job, to point out that that is exactly why, in America, the veterans ministry is at arm's length from the Pentagon. That was the arrangement for which the Royal British Legion pressed, because the organisation whose focus is, rightly, on fighting the wars and fulfilling the commitments of today, will never have its eye fully on the ball of the kind of case that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.

David Borrow: I am grateful for those comments, and I shall come back to them in my final few remarks.
	Let us think about the issues that have been raised this afternoon. The problem with the Arctic convoy medals is a classic. If we asked Members anonymously, the vast majority would say that the men who served on those convoys should have a medal, and it is up to MOD officials to find a way of giving them one. However, I fully understand the difficulties that Ministers may have in sorting that out, because civil servants will always come up with a reason not to do it. That is one reason why we need a Minister for veterans, but the job is only half done.
	That brings me back to the comment made by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier).
	Since we have had a Minister for veterans, much progress has been made on several matters but we have not reached the point where we need to be. The Minister has much more work to do to deliver on many of the issues that we have discussed.
	We must consider, for example, the way in which we deal with people when they have left the services. I spent 1998 and last year on the armed forces parliamentary scheme with the Army. I therefore spoke to many of the servicemen and women who were involved in the Iraq campaign last year. Former servicemen and women are expected to serve as reservists, but the assumption since the second world war has been that a reservist would be called up only in the case of a direct threat to the United Kingdom. My father told me a few years ago that he was nearly called up to go to Korea but the general assumption in the UK was that once people had left the Army, the Navy or the Air Force, they would not be called up unless the Russians came over the German plain and we were fighting for our existence.
	Iraq shows that the situation has changedit was expected that the reservists would be called up. Although the Territorial Army generally responded well to the call-up, many reservists assumed that they would not be called up unless there was a threat to the UK and found all sorts of reasons not to respond. We need to sort out what is expected of people when they leave the services. If they intend to continue as reservists, they must be clear that they could be called up for relatively small peacekeeping campaigns if that was the military's requirement. We must ensure that men and women who leave the services understand their obligations and future role. Many issues have not been properly sorted out because matters have drifted and we have assumed that things will simply carry on.
	Many of today's contributions, especially on the Arctic convoy, have been powerful and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will take them on board and acknowledge that change will happen. He has a major job of work, which is half done. He has made significant progress in the Ministry of Defence in improving the way in which we deal with servicemen and women when they reach the end of their service and move into civilian life and their treatment during that transition period. Many good initiatives have taken place and the Ministry's response to the D-day celebrations was excellent; everybody deserves congratulations on that.
	However, we should not believe that we have reached the end of the process. The job is half done. Perhaps we may have to revert to considering whether the Minister for veterans should remain at the Ministry of Defence. Much progress is being made, however, and compared with the position seven years ago, when I became a Member of Parliament, matters are immeasurably better. If progress can continue at such a pace, we may well reach where we should be by the time I leave the House.

Julian Brazier: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow). Indeed, some of my remarks follow from his points.
	It is appropriate that the debate is being held this week. The tens of thousands of men who crossed the small strip of water close to my constituency where ferries ply today were on an uncertain mission. Most of the amphibious landings that allied forces attempted in both world wars failed and Hitler never tried a major amphibious landing. Although in physical terms the distance was small, when we consider that they faced minefields, barbed wire, concrete emplacementssome of which are preserved and were shown on televisionand being swept by formidable fire from determined defenders after a bone-shaking sea crossing, it is clear that they were a remarkable group of men.
	I pay tribute to my local branch of the Normandy Veterans Association, headed by the redoubtable Frank Risbridger, which commemorated this remarkable event. I also join other hon. Members in congratulating the Government on the organisation and work that went into the commemorations. It is particularly encouraging to see the number of young people who have been so impressed by them. I further congratulate the Government on the announcement of the 27 million package that the Minister has extracted from the national lottery to carry on the commemorations by reminding young people in our schools of the sacrifices that were made by people of previous generations.
	It is easy to pay lip service to the achievements of our veterans when we have a focal point as obvious as the recent anniversary, but it is also our duty to remember the countless other wars and operations on which we have sent our armed forces. Today, we are thinking mostly about D-day; tomorrow, our thoughts will no doubt return to Iraq, Afghanistan and other places. Since the end of the second world war, we have sent our forces to, among other places, Palestine, Korea, Egypt, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Aden, Oman, the Falkland islands, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Kuwait andagain and againNorthern Ireland. Each of those engagements required the courage, professionalism and dedication to duty for which our armed forcesregular and citizenare so well known.
	Successive British Governments have been able to undertake those actions because, no matter what technical or geographical problems lay ahead, we could be confident that our armed forces would surmount them, and they are rightly admired all round the world for doing so. The men and women of our armed forces go to those places without complaintBritish soldiers have always enjoyed a bit of chuntering, but they go willingly and without hesitation or reservation. We are very fortunate to be so well served.
	In so many debates on the armed forces, we acknowledge the debt that we owe our forces and rightly pay tribute to those who have been killed. We owe the members of our armed forces a duty of care, and I sometimes wonder whether we are fulfilling it. The whole nation was moved when it watched those brave old men make their pilgrimage to the beaches and drop zones around Normandy. It is all very well to talk about our debt of gratitude to the people who fought in the second world war and in subsequent conflicts, but each conflict produced its heroes and each man or woman involved had a story to tell, and all those events left scarssome mental, some physicalon many of the survivors.
	That is why this year, the 60th anniversary of D-day, is an incredibly inappropriate timenot that there would ever be an appropriate onefor Her Majesty's Government to introduce proposals to alter the arrangements for war pensions. The worst of the changes is the raising of the burden of proof, to which the British Legion and the other service welfare organisations have objected so strongly. My hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir Sydney Chapman) referred in his powerful speech to the shortening of the time periods for most medical cases from seven years to five, and to the fact that procedures and tribunal arrangements will be much more complicated.

Ivor Caplin: I know that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to mislead the House in any way. It would be right for him to say, therefore, that the new compensation arrangements are for events that occur after 6 April 2005, when the new compensation scheme will come in, provided both Houses approve the necessary legislation. Anything that happened before that date will be covered by the current war pension compensation arrangements.

Julian Brazier: The Minister is, of course, entirely right, but that is exactly my point: we owe those who are serving in the armed forces nowour future veteransthe same duty of care that previous Governments have accepted since the first world war. It applied to those generations that went over the top on the Somme, on to the beaches of Normandy and to all the places I listed.
	We owe that same debt to people who next year will serve in theatres in which we are still involvedIraq, Afghanistan and so onas well as in subsequent years and subsequent conflicts. The new arrangements are a shabby change. The Defence Committee put it terribly well:
	One of the main objections to the proposals continues to be the change in the standard and burden of proof for claims under the scheme . . . The Royal British Legion claims that this is a cost-saving exercise, which will make it harder for claims to succeed, and which at least initially will not even save any costs (as most claims
	as the Minister has just said
	will continue to be under the old scheme).
	The Committee's report points out that the Government's defence is the astonishing assertion that it is necessary to bring things into line with civilian practice. However, the powerful speech from the hon. Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow) made clear a range of ways in which the armed forces are very different from the civilian community. The Committee said:
	Because of the special risks that Armed Forces personnel are required to run, and because they are likely to be involved in situations of great uncertainty, with uncertain effects on their health, we continue to believe that the onus should remain on the Government to prove that service was not responsible for causing or worsening a condition for which a compensation claim is made.
	The Minister has just alluded to both Houses of Parliament. Having voted against these proposals at every possible opportunity in the House, may I say that I very much hope that another place throws out this mean-minded little measure, striking it from the Bill?
	I want to make one more point before moving on. One of the things that worries large numbers of people across all parts of the political spectrummy private Member's Bill addresses a tiny part of thisis the growth in the litigious culture. Many people who have served in the armed forces are extremely worried about the demoralising and corrosive effect on morale and the command structure of the growing number of successful litigious claims being brought against the MOD. I can think of no other way of ensuring with greater certainty that the number of cases taken to the civil courts will spiral than such an emasculation of the internal procedures. What message do we send to the shades of the men whom the crosses in Normandy represent when we tell them that this is how we are treating their military descendantsour current armed forces?
	Family life in the armed forces has been desperately hit by overstretch over the past few years. When this Government took office, the average divorce rate for the armed forces, which is very different among the three services, was well above the national average; since then, it has risen in the Army by almost another third.
	The truth is that service families have aspirations too. Besides the obvious effects of overstretch, with husbands or wives being away for such long periods, one area where the pressure is greatest is housing. I pay tribute to the Minister for his work at the hardest end of the problem, which is considering the issue of the homeless and the fact that between 10 and 20 per cent. of people on the streets are former service personnel. That worries us all, but it is only a small part of the total.
	The much wider problem for service families is the huge gap in respect of the aspiration, which they share with the civilian population, to own their own home. The reality is that the peripatetic nature of life in the Army and parts of the Air Force means that people cannot do so for the bulk of their service.
	Indeed, the experiment that we introduced in the early 1990s to encourage soldiers to buy homesthe Navy concentrated mostly on south-west Englandwas a disaster, and resulted in a big increase in people leaving prematurely.
	If we want to continue to attract and retain good-quality people in our armed forces, which are still under strength, despite the fact that the manning targets keep getting reduced[Interruption.] I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to make a point.

Mike Hall: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I was making an aside that the shadow Chancellor's plans for spending on our armed forces would make that situation even worse.

Julian Brazier: The shadow Chancellor has not announced any spending targets for defence. I have read his paperI doubt that the hon. Gentleman has done so. He should watch this space for the announcement.
	The Government must address the issue of housing in the armed forces. One of the key factors must be to recognise the importance of continuing to provide a decent subsidy for rent, so that members of the armed forces can save to own their own homes.
	Almost every Member who spoke in the debate mentioned the Arctic convoys. One of the Arctic convoy veterans, Commander Rodney Gear-Evans, whom I feel privileged to know, lives in my constituency. He is a quiet, self-effacing man and he does not talk about his experience. It is extraordinary, however, that of the two great outstanding medal issues, the Government have chosen the other one. I welcome the fact that the canal zone medal is being struckby chance, my father served in the second half of that, the Suez operation, and not in the canal zone. It was deeply uncomfortable for the people there, and extremely hot, but there were relatively few casualties.
	What those soldiers went through, however, in a hot, sticky, unpleasant environment, periodically getting shot at, cannot be compared with the incredible danger and discomfort that people on the Arctic convoys went through, with minus 40 weather, continued bombing raids and torpedo attacks. Only a small number of other parts of the service, such as Bomber Command and Fighter Command during the battle of Britain, suffered a death rate that was remotely comparable. The idea that we can agree to make a special case for the canal zone veterans, worthy as their case is, but turn down the Arctic convoy veterans, strikes me as extraordinary. On a visit with the Defence Committee to Moscow, it was strongly pointed out to me how much the sacrifices made by those brave sailors of both the Royal Navy and the Merchant Navy, whose casualties were much heavier, were appreciated. I hope that the Government will consider that again.
	This has been an excellent debate in the most appropriate week of all. We owe our veterans a tremendous debt of gratitude. We pay tribute to the dead, and the best way in which we can do so is by looking after their comrades who survived not just the second world war but all the subsequent wars and those who will survive the wars that, sadly, no doubt are to come.

Andy Burnham: Perhaps all of us are prone to overstatement in this place, but it is a privilege to contribute in a small way to a debate on such momentous events in our country's history. A couple of Opposition Members have mentioned the younger generation, and I hope that I can speak as a representative of that generation. One of my main points relates to how we remember, as we go forward into this century, the events about which Members have spoken so eloquently today.
	Although I am no expert on military matters, I suppose I have family experience that is common to many British familiesexperience of loss in one of the great wars of the last century. My great-grandfather, Edward Burke, a soldier in the King's Regiment (Liverpool), died as a prisoner of war in Cologne during the first world war. That is mirrored in the experience of thousands of families in my constituency and throughout the north-west, and thousands more have given service to the armed forces. It is in recognition of service to our country that I speak today. In the second world war 1,800 people from our borough lost their lives, and in what is perhaps a more selfish era it is humbling to think of what they did for us and the enormous debt of thanks that we owe them.
	The weekend's dignified events in France provide a sharp counterpoint to our more complicated and possibly more troubled times. Although they might have seemed to jar somewhat with a Europe-wide election, it was actually quite fitting that they took place at the time of an election in which issues such as racism, nationalism and isolationism are all on the agenda. I do not want to make a party-political point, but it was as if Europe was receiving a stern message from the past: that co-operation always defeats isolationism, that patriotism always defeats nationalism, and that our common humanity always defeats racism.
	Over the weekend it was reported that Chancellor Schrder, who I think was very welcome at the celebrations, had said that the post-war period was finally over. I feel instinctively that that is true, but it prompts us to ask what we must do today to ensure that the sacrifices made in the last century are remembered by my generation, by my children's generation, and throughout this century. It is vital for us to support the organisations that will help us to remember those who died, and will continue to teach generations to come the lessons of the last century.
	Let me say something about what we are doing individually to thank those who gave us the freedom that we enjoy today. I welcome what the Government have done, and join others in praising and thanking the veterans Minister, who has done a sterling job since his appointment: many hon. Members have mentioned the Heroes Return scheme, and passports for the over-75s enable them to travel freely in the free Europe that they helped to create. Those gestures are fitting and right.
	The Minister mentioned the celebrations that will take place in July next year. I trust that they will be a great success, and hope that one of my constituents, Mr. J. R. Rollings, who was a driver for Field Marshal Montgomery when the Germans surrendered, will be able to play a part in them.
	It would be a grave mistake, though, for policy-makers or politicians to imagine that we could ever do enough for the veterans, or that we have done our duty by them. In preparation for the debate, I met John Kelly and Jan Thomas of the Leigh branch of the British Legion. They asked me to raise with the Minister an issue related to the war disablement pension. I hope that the Minister will raise it with his colleagues in other Departments as part of the Government's spending review.
	I believe that 10 of the war disablement pension is disregarded in the calculation of entitlement to pension credit. The same applies to any means-tested benefit. The disregard has not been uprated since 1990, when it was uprated from 5. According to the most recent figures supplied by the House of Commons Library, 11,200 people receiving war disablement pensions that have been taken into account receive pension credit. Currently, 251,400 war pensions are being paid, which suggests that many veterans are not taking advantage of the pension credit. That may be because it would not benefit them greatly, given that the disregard is only 10. I am not necessarily asking for a 100 per cent. disregard, but I hope that we can do more for elderly people in retirement who have given great service to our country.
	Apparently, only a couple of years ago, 284,000 people were in receipt of war pensions. The number is now down to 250,000. It is declining sharply. It would be a small gesture to enable them to have more comfort and dignity in their well-deserved retirement.
	I come on to the organisations that will help my generation and generations after that to remember what our forefathers did to give us the freedoms that we enjoy. I am sure that my area is not alone in this but, a few years ago, we lost the Royal British Legion club in Leigh because of financial difficulties and there is now no permanent branch in the town. One of the problems faced by such clubs is their dwindling memberships, which means that they are less able to draw on the membership to keep the club in existence. It is an issue not for the Government but for the Royal British Legion, which may need to be flexible when it comes to trying to help those clubs to carry on. The loss of the premises led to a capital receipt, which is held nationally by the Royal British Legion. I believe that a club has to have 200 or 300 members before the Royal British Legion will help it to acquire new premises.

Ivor Caplin: I hope to help my hon. Friend. In response to the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth), I referred to my meetings with the Royal British Legion. I have made that point. Clubs are getting older because their memberships are getting older. The challenge for the Royal British Legion, which it entirely accepts, is how to get younger veterans into Royal British Legion clubs. It has a project team looking at that. My hope as the Minister for veterans is that, in the longer term, the Royal British Legion will have more clubs and a lot more younger people going into them.

Andy Burnham: I welcome the Minister's intervention and hope that that review will produce something concrete. It is a chicken and egg situation. The longer there is no permanent club, the more the membership declines. The members of the Royal British Legion to whom I referred earlier, John Kelly and Jan Thomas, are working hard to keep the flame alive. They need some help but they cannot access the capital receipts that are held nationally for them because they do not meet the membership requirement laid down by the Royal British Legion. I welcome that review and hope that it will make progress.
	This year, I will work with the Holocaust Educational Trust to take a group of 16-year-olds from Leigh to Auschwitz. The trust will do an increasingly important job this century in telling generations to come of the lessons of the previous century, but I do not believe that it receives substantial public funding. There may be a case to be made to help it to pass on the memories of what happened to other generations.
	I hope that, in discussions with colleagues at the Department for Education and Skills, the Minister will make the point that every school should give young teenagers the chance to go to the Commonwealth war cemeteries. It is such a moving and memorable experience. Even the hardest of nuts will be moved when they see the rows and rows of graves marked, Anonymous. A soldier known unto God. That is one thing that all our schools should be involved in. Incidentally, my brother, John Burnham, who is a teacher at Birchwood high school in Warrington, is taking a group to Ypres this Monday. It would be worth investing in such visits.

Mike Hall: My hon. Friend refers to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and mentions the graves that are there for all to see, but the most important thing to say is that the Thiepval memorial records the names of people whose bodies have never been found. That is a profound message and younger generations need to be given the opportunity to see that at first hand.

Andy Burnham: Absolutely. It is crucial.
	That brings me to my final point, which is about organisations that are keeping the legacy alive and passing on memories to another generation.
	The Commonwealth War Graves Commission does a marvellous job in putting families back in touch with their loved ones and preserving their memory. It clearly needs to be fully financed, which should not be a party political issuethere should be complete unanimity across the Chamber. As well as physical memorials, the commission uses new technology to preserve our collective debt of thanks. I want to give a personal example of the incalculable value of that.
	The commission runs an internet service known as the debt of honour register. Three or four years ago, when the service was launched, my brother searched for my great-grandfather, and now we have a document that says:
	In memory of Private E. Burke of the King's Liverpool Regiment, died aged 34, 28th of October 1918. Commemorated in perpetuity by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Remembered with honour.
	That is fantastic for my family.
	My great-grandfather's wife and daughters searched throughout Germany to try to find where he was buried, but they never found him or what happened to him. In the end, my gran and her sisters wrote to the Vatican, but that produced no results, so they never knew. It is amazing that I am more in touch with my great-grandfather than they were. That is what new technology can do for my generation.
	If the House will indulge me, I shall quote from a letter that we discovered from my great-grandfather to his twin brother Walter on 27 July 1918a couple of months before he died. Perhaps there was a spark of politics in him, which I may have inherited, because he said:
	I had a good talk last night over Old Ireland. Walter, there are thousands of Irish boys here and I may tell you it is God help the Boche if they come across them. Then they say Ireland is not doing her fair share in this war.
	Mr. Deputy Speaker, you may pass it on to Mr. Speaker that he added:
	Also, the Jocks are fine fellows.
	Poignantly, the final paragraph reads:
	By the time you get this letter, things will have happened here and I ask you to pray for me that our holy mother will protect us from all danger. That I may see you again, Walter, is my sincere wish.
	It goes without saying that such memories are priceless for families such as mine, keeping us in touch with what happened in the last century. They are among the most cherished collective memories of this nation. Long may they continue, and long may the Minister continue in his excellent work for veterans, their families and all who have served in our armed forces.

Robert Key: I congratulate the hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) on a most moving speech.
	It is a great privilege and honour to represent more than 11,000 Ministry of Defence employees, half of whom are in Her Majesty's forces, and half civil servants, scientific civil servants or in support roles. Thousands of my constituents are veterans. By disposition, I am an optimist. After all, war represents a failure of diplomacy and politics.
	Summer 1944 was a very important time for me. My parents had survived the blitz in Plymouth. My father was rector of Stoke Damerel, part of the dockyard community. My brother and sisters had survived night after night in the cellar while my father was out on air raid patrols in the dockyards. The summer was a time of some celebration, of which I am living proof, because I was born in April 1945, at 1 Penlee way, Stoke Damerel.
	In 1947, we moved to Salisbury, a garrison city. I was brought up with the traditions of the military and military uniforms.
	Yes, the military all wore uniforms in the street as a matter of course in those days as they went through Salisbury. Last Sunday we had our D-day service in Salisbury cathedral. Our Dean, the Very Rev. June Osborne, reminded us that although our minds were focused on Normandy, we should not forget what had happened on the eastern front and we should be remembering everyone who sought to liberate Europe, whether they were in Budapest or Brest. Sitting opposite me in the cathedral was the former Father of the House, my constituent the right hon. Sir Edward Heath. I should like to pay tribute to his wartime record and all that he achieved in those dark days. He had in his own right a distinguished career in the military.
	We look forward to celebrating in my constituency on Sunday 11 July the annual Fovant Badges Drumhead service, at which we will recall the contribution of the former empire and Commonwealth forces in the two world wars of the previous century. We will see there more than 30 standards of the Royal British Legion and a substantial congregation will assemble on the lawn of the farm to look at the regimental badges carved in the chalk and sing our hearts out, particularly this year as we celebrate the 60th anniversary.
	If anyone doubts the spirit of the young people in our armed services, I invite them to visit Amesbury town centre on a Saturday night. They will then be in no doubt of the mindset of our young people, who work hard and, by golly, play hard. Perhaps by contrast they could then visit the Winchester Army training establishment or the Army foundation college at Harrogate to see the quality of the young people who wish voluntarily to enter the finest army in the world. They would not be disappointed.
	Yesterday morning, along with my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) and the current Father of the House, I attended the memorial to innocent victims at Westminster abbey for short prayers to commemorate all those who died in the crash of Chinook ZD576 on the Mull of Kintyre 10 years ago. Various comments have been made on that, which I shall not repeat, but I shall just say that I am grateful to the Prime Minister for agreeing to see some people who, like me, have been involved in the campaign for a long time. A point of law is involved in the case. In my judgment, it is not a matter of a technical assessment of what went wrong, because none of us will ever know. That is the whole point. The burden of proof required to condemn men to gross negligencethat there is no possible doubt whateveris more rigorous than the burden required for murder. This is not a technical issue, but a matter of political judgment.
	When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, I went to see her at No. 10, with several other hon. Members in a cross-party delegation, about blood infected with HIV and the way in which haemophiliacs were affected. We looked her in the eye and she looked back and said, You're right. Morally, you're correct. So without any question of liability or admission of guilt, an ex gratia payment was made to found a fund to support people who were victims as a result. In the same way, I hope that we can now move on from what may have happened in the case of ZD576. I see this as a great opportunity for the Prime Minister to do his best to show that he is no less a Prime Minister than Margaret Thatcher was when she changed the minds of the Government, Secretaries of State and civil servants on that issue.
	I welcome the Minister for veterans. It is a pleasure to work with him, as I do on many constituency issues. He is always welcome to visit my constituency, as are all Ministers in the Ministry of Defence, and I know that he and they do so regularly. I recall that it was when I was a serving member of the Defence Committee in 1996, and we produced a report on Gulf war syndrome, that we concluded that we needed a Minister for veterans' affairs. Having visited Washington, we concluded that we did not need a Department of veterans' affairs but that we did need a Minister to co-ordinate the MOD's response and do a bit of joined-up government. That recommendation was in the Conservative manifesto in 1997. Sadly we were not able to carry that out, but I am glad that the incoming Government saw the wisdom of that course of action.
	The Veterans Agency has grown in stature very rapidly indeed, and I can save many minutes of my speech by simply referring Members to its excellent website, www.veteransagency.mod.uk, and by pointing out that it performs a wide range of services for veterans. But I would not want to forget what is done by other agencies, particularly the Army Families Federation, which makes a huge contribution, as do the Royal Naval and Royal Air Force family organisations and the Army welfare services themselves. All of them look after not just existing servicemen but veterans who need support.
	Of course, we first and foremost think of the Royal British Legion in this connection. Last November, I attended my 21st Remembrance day ceremony, in Guildhall square, Salisbury, as its Member of Parliament. We in Salisbury are immensely proud of our Royal British Legionthe main branch is in Salisbury but we have other branches, including in Amesburywhich is a very active part of our community. But we should never for one moment think that the RBL is all about looking after the elderly, because that is not always the case. In fact, it looks after a great many people. Some 13 million people in the UK are eligible for its help: 5.5 million ex-service people and 7.5 million dependants. That is about 20 per cent. of the population.
	Interestinglythis is not widely knownanyone can be a member of the Royal British Legion, ex-service or not. One need not be an RBL member to receive assistance, but one must be an ex-service person or a dependant. In fact, anyone who has been in the British armed forces for seven days or more is eligible for help. In only one year since the second world war1968has a British service person not been killed on active service, so the work of the RBL is ongoing. It will always be there for future generations, and for that we are deeply grateful.
	I am also particularly grateful to the Soldiers, Sailors and Air Force Association, which does wonderful work in my constituency and throughout the country by supporting the regimental benevolent funds. Thank goodness we have a regimental system in this country; it is the envy of all other NATO countries. The regimental benevolent funds are not limitless, and SSAFA helps a great many people, including, of course, veterans and their dependants.
	There is one particular issue that I want to deal with before I finish. In July 1999, Wiltshire constabulary began inquiries into allegations made by a former serviceman, who said that during his national service, he had taken part in research into finding a cure for the common cold at Porton Down. He subsequently said that the experiments and tests carried out on him had nothing to do with common cold research, and that those who conducted the experiments had assaulted him. He also alleged that another serviceman had been killed in an illegal experiment at Porton involving nerve gas, in 1953.
	As a result of that complaint and of other allegations, Wiltshire constabulary initiated a major inquiry, Operation Antler, the purpose of which was to examine the issues associated with the service volunteer programme at Porton Down and experiments relating to the use of chemical and biological agents during the period 1939 to 1989. Some volunteers claimed to have suffered long-term illness or injury. More than 250 were interviewed and 25 cases were selected for development, with a view to ascertaining whether criminal offences had been committed. Of those, eight were selected to progress to the Crown Prosecution Service for consideration in respect of the offences of administering an unlawful substance, and of assault. More than 700 ex-service personnel and their relatives had made contact with the Wiltshire constabulary or had been contacted by the inquiry team. Although some claimed to have suffered illness or injury, others were shown to have experienced no adverse long-term side effects, and they made no claims.
	Operation Antler came to a conclusion, and last summer the Government announced that they were not going to take any action. That has caused a great deal of consternation for many hundreds of veterans. Only this week has a lot more information been put on the public record, as a result of a parliamentary question that I tabled in January.
	Although I received a letter from the Solicitor-General in March, explaining why it was taking a long time, the results were published on Monday this week. It is important to put the minds of many hundreds of veterans at rest by explaining briefly what had happened.
	The testing of chemical agents at Porton Down goes back to the use of poisonous gas by the Germans in the first world war. The participation of servicemen in testing, in connection with the use of chemical agents, began on an organised basis back in the 1920s. Recent surveys have found that more than 20,000 servicemen were involved, of whom about 3,000 participated in studies involving nerve agents, 6,000 in studies involving mustard gas and several hundred in studies evaluating the effects of other incapacitants, mental or physical. The evidence gathered under Operation Antler provided considerable detail on these matters.
	The Crown Prosecution Service has examined in general terms the evidence concerning the conduct, authorisation and supervision of tests carried out at Porton Downfrom ministerial level downwards, through the internal and external supervisory committees, to the point of testing there. Contemporary knowledge was assessed in respect of the foreseeable risks to the health of servicemen. The CPS considered evidence about the information provided to servicemen prior to the tests. It also examined evidence on what was administered or done to the observers and on both the immediate effects and subsequent ill health. Modern expert evidence has assessed various aspects of the treatment of the servicemen at Porton Down by the standards applicable at the time, including medical ethics. The CPS also had access to formal interviews with surviving potential suspects.
	The lawfulness arising in each of the selected episodes of testing reflected in the advice files is, it seems to methough I am not a lawyera novel issue in the context of our domestic criminal law. It concerns the legal principles applicable to non-therapeutic medical experimentation on human subjects, and, in particular, the principles bearing on the issue of consent.
	The inquiry has shown that, although there was a substantial body of evidence suggesting that military station notices did refer to common cold research at Porton Down, no such notices have ever been found. There has been much confusion about that. There was a common cold research institute outside Salisburyat Harnwood hospitaland it also ran a volunteer programme, which was a confusing factor.
	There is no clear evidence that the staff at Porton Down ever sought to misrepresent the testing that was carried out there. Whatever reason the volunteers had for attending Porton Down, once there, they were told in very clear terms that the research was connected with chemical and biological warfare and defence. That means warfare prior to the mid-1950s and defence afterwards. We have done no offensive work on chemical and biological warfare in this country since the mid-1950s: it has all been defensive.
	The obvious criminal offences against which to evaluate the evidence were administering a noxious thing, contrary to section 24 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 and assault occasioning actual bodily harm, contrary to section 47 of the same Act. In addition, there is the general common law rule that it is not in the public interest that a person should wound or cause actual bodily harm to another for no good reason. Accordingly, such conduct is unlawful, regardless of the consent of the injured person. Non-therapeutic research on human subjects carried out in accordance with contemporary standards of reasonable medical practice is highly unlikely to be regarded by any criminal court as other than properly conducted.
	The point that I am getting to is that there has to be sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of proving to a criminal standard that specific testing at Porton Down was a substantial cause of any subsequent ill health suffered by an observer. Evidence of subsequent ill health is necessary before assessing the prospects of success in proving a criminal charge. There is no evidence: that is the final word of the Crown Prosecution Service.
	Having considered all the evidence, the CPS concluded that it did not provide a realistic prospect of conviction. The weight of the evidence revealed that the testing had been carried out in the public interest, and in accordance with the accepted professional standards of the day. Moreover, the observers volunteered for the nature of the act, and there is no evidence to suggest that the testing caused any subsequent ill health.
	There were some problems to do with the quality of the evidence, and with evidence that had gone missing in the long period since the events took place. However, the CPS concluded that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute any person for any criminal offence. That decision was taken after the most thorough and careful consideration of the evidence.
	We must start a new chapter at Porton Down. For five years, my constituents at what is now the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory there have gone to work every day knowing that 20 police officers from the Wiltshire constabulary, and a number of Minister of Defence police officers, were undertaking criminal investigations into work carried out by my constituents' predecessors. For five years, retired scientists have feared the knock on the door from police calling to interrogate and, possibly, arrest them. For many years, retired civil servantsand volunteers and veteranshave been telephoned and doorstepped by journalists coming hotfoot from the old Public Records Office at Kew as official documents came to be released under the 30-year rule. The names of the scientists who participated in trials many years ago have, of course, been released.
	There are more than 1,000 dedicated employees at DSTL Porton Down, and another 800 at the Health Protection Agency next door. Many are world-class scientists. I visited the US last year with the Select Committee on Science and Technology, as part of our inquiry into the scientific response to terrorism. Wherever we wentfrom the White House, to the centres for disease control in Atlanta or the Lawrence Livermore laboratories in Californiawe learned of the high regard in which the scientists at Porton Down were held.
	They are all dedicated professionals, whether they be scientists, civil servants or support staff. They are dedicated to saving life. They work to save the lives of our service men and women. Increasingly, they are conducting research into nervous disorders, and into saving the lives of people suffering from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases. I salute them, just as I salute our proud and noble veterans.

John McDonnell: I commend the work undertaken by my hon. Friend the Minister who opened the debate, and his contribution to what was a very moving weekend of commemoration.
	I also commend the work of the Imperial War museum. I took my eight-year old son Joseph to the D-day exhibition last week. The display was fascinating, and incredibly moving for people of all ages.
	Last night, I met two other veterans. Jack Jones and Bob Doyle were members of the International Brigade in the Spanish civil war, who volunteered to fight fascism when it appeared in its earliest form. I welcome the fact that the Government are considering what commemoration could be afforded to them and the sacrifice that they made. Last night, a plaque was unveiled at a ceremony held by the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers to celebrate and commemorate the 70 members of the National Union of Seamen and National Union of Railwaymen who fought for the International Brigade. If the brigade had been successful, it is possible that we could have avoided world war two and its consequences, including D-day.
	I want to refer to a matter that I and the Royal British Legion raised two years ago, and that is the records of British ex-service personnel. At that time, the Government announced proposals to privatise the Ministry of Defence records office based in Bourne avenue in Hayes, in my constituency. The office stores all the records of all service personnel, going back to well before world war one. Visitors to the office can see the historical artefacts that are the actual records of each serviceman: indeed, when I visited, the staff there brought out my father's second world war records.
	The records are stored and archived by a team of dedicated staff, many of whom have served there for a long time. They are extremely caring, diligent, conscientious people. The records are very sensitive, as they contain the personal details of all ex-service personnel of all ranks. For example, they also include the records of personnel who have served recently in Northern Ireland. Some of the records were used in the Bloody Sunday inquiry.
	In December last year, the records operation was sold to TNT and the site was sold to ProLogis for development. The records are being transferred to a TNT warehouse in the midlands. The MOD staff, who have given loyal and dedicated service, have been transferred to the private company, TNT, and most will lose their jobs within 15 months. As well as the loss of my constituents' jobs, the MOD will lose their expertise and care.
	I am also concerned about the risk to those irreplaceable and historical documents. Parliamentary questions have revealed that more than 40 complaints have been made about the performance of the private company in handling those records since the transfer in December. Large numbers of new agency staff are now operating on the site and have access to those sensitive records. The speed with which those staff have been granted sufficient security clearance to gain access to those records is remarkable. The speed of that security clearance has never been observed in an MOD establishment before.
	I pay tribute to the existing staff who are doing all that they can to maintain a high quality service. I pay tribute in particular to Dolores Moody, the Public and Commercial Services Union representative, who seeks to protect the working conditions of her fellow workers as well as to ensure the standards of service delivery and the protection of those precious documents.
	I urge Ministers to re-examine the operation of that public-private partnership. If it were up to me, I would invoke the penalty clause and bring the service back into public ownership and the control of the MOD. If that is not possible, Ministers should at least consider how they can ensure that both the staff and the records they tend are protected. Under the new arrangements, those documents are at risk, and that puts the security of some of our ex-servicemen at risk, too.

Peter Luff: It is right and proper that this debate should be conducted a few days after the commemoration of the 60th anniversary of D-day last weekend. I hope that the Minister does not think that I am being facetious if I say that Britain likes to celebrate its retreats as well as its victories. My father was involved in one of our most celebrated retreatsfrom Gallipoli, where he fought with the Berkshire Yeomanry in the first world warand I also have in mind the retreat from Dunkirk.
	I have a high regard for the Minister for veterans. I would go so far as to say that he is the best we have hadalthough he is only the second. I admire his dedication to his cause in sitting through this debatealthough it has been a good one to have to sit through, with some moving and memorable speeches from different generations with various reflections on what being a veteran meansbut he is in grievous error on two counts. If he were to beat a tactical retreatlike those at Gallipoli and Dunkirkon the issue of the Arctic convoy medal and the closure of the Droitwich Spa Army medal office, he would be even more popular with the veterans whose causes he generally espouses so well.
	I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), because there is a strange synergy between the points that we wish to make on behalf of our constituents in relation to the protection of records and excellent services based in our constituencies. I am deeply and seriously concerned that the closure of the Army medal officeand of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines medal offices in Gosportwill seriously prejudice the issuing of medals.
	I saw at first-hand the efficiency of the Droitwich Spa Army medal office when I visited it for the first time as its constituency MP some years ago. The staff asked me about my father's service record and I described his service in the first world war with the Berkshire Yeomanry, the Imperial Camel Corps and the Worcestershire Yeomanry. They asked whether he had served in the Home Guard during the second world war. I confirmed that he did, so they asked whether he had claimed his defence medal. I did not know, but I knew that I had only his first world war medals. They looked up the records on the spot and established that my father had never claimed his defence medal. They issued it to me and, two years ago on Remembrance day in Droitwich, I was able to wear his three first world war medals alongside his second world war medal.
	That was a proud moment for me. I know how much the Royal British Legion appreciates the wearing of veterans' medals by their descendants. I owe the medal office a debt, but the veterans owe the medal service a very big debt indeed for the remarkable job that it does.
	I want to make three points. First, I want to discuss the general wisdom of moving the Droitwich Spa Army medal office to a new location based at the RAF medal office at Innsworth. Secondly, I want to look at the impact of that change for the Suez medals and, to a lesser extent, the Iraq medal. Thirdly, I want to look at the detail of the financial case that the Government are fighting for closure.
	My view overall is that the Government have been led into an error of judgment through unblinking adherence to a simple tri-service agenda. The facts are being made to fit the model when actually the model should be made to fit the facts. I do not dismiss the possibility that at some stage in the future merger of the three offices may make sense but, as the Minister knows, I genuinely believe that this is the worst possible time in the history of the medal offices to make such a change.
	The change did not come as a great surprise. I heard rumours from the trade unions at the site in late March that the move was on the cards, but the event was publicly confirmed only with the Minister's statement on 20 April when he said:
	Consultation with MOD Trade Unions about the choice of the three sites from which JPA
	the new joint personnel administration
	will be delivered has been undertaken and detailed local consultation about the implications for staff will start shortly.[Official Report, 20 April 2004; Vol. 420, c. 11WS.]
	It is both the absence of that detailed consideration of the implications for the medal offices and the whole strategy of the JPA that cause me concern, which is hardly surprising as medal offices are not currently part of the structure that will form part of the JPA. They are outside the AFPAAthe Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency. This is a difficult subject area for civilians to venture intothe acronyms are, in the best military tradition, truly blinding.
	I have a letter written to veterans' organisations by the senior national officer of the Public and Commercial Services Union, Mike Duggan, which summarises the situation extremely well. It states:
	Currently our members at Droitwich undertake all the research required to ensure that awards and medals are properly granted to Army personnel and are responsible for the stamping and issue of all medals to the three military services.
	That is a very big operation indeed, by the far the biggest of the four medal offices.
	Sometimes, concern is expressed about the length of time it takes to issue medals, but it is difficult to speed up the process, especially when it involves checking the records of older campaigns. It has to be a meticulous affair. Several Members have spoken about the difficulties of determining the length of time that people were in theatres in order to justify the issue of a medal, but very specific criteria are attached to each medal and the process and the work involved are indeed complex.
	The PCS letter also states that
	the loss of the majority of the Army Medal Office staff at Droitwich, with the formation of the Joint Medal Office at Innsworth, will have a severely detrimental impact upon the levels of experience amongst staff handling enquiries and requests for awards . . . with the current backlog of requests for medals and the further campaigns which the Government has recognised for awards, now is the worst possible time for the transfer of work and loss of experienced staff.
	We have heard a number of estimates of the length of the backlog for the issue of the Suez medal. Today, the Minister told us that it was two years. I understood that three years was nearer the mark and some people take an even more pessimistic view, but the backlog is certainly considerable.
	All those factors combine to make me ask the basic question: why move the operations away from Droitwich? If there has to be a joint medal office, why not concentrate the expertise at the biggest of the medal office sites in Droitwich? If that is not possible, why not delay the closure for at least three years, to enable the current heavy work load to be dealt with effectively?
	This is the busiest time in the office's life. The Suez canal zone medal, which has been generally welcomed, has produced thousands upon thousands of applicationsmore than 30,000 in totalmost, but not all, are Army applications.
	The campaign in Iraq is generating a new flood of medal-issuing demands. As regards the second world war, about 500 or 600 applications are received each month, and the events of last weekend will have again prompted many veterans and relations of deceased veterans to claim their medals.
	Then there is the ongoing business of replacing lost and stolen medals. Establishing beyond doubt that medals were genuinely lost or stolen is a very time-consuming process. Reissuing medals from earlier campaigns is equivalent to issuing money, because they are very valuable, and careful checking has to take place beforehand.
	The ongoing campaigns in the Balkans, Northern Ireland and Sierra Leone produce medals, too. It is a very busy time.
	The Minister told me in a parliamentary answer:
	The Army Medal Office at Droitwich is currently responsible for the issue or replacement of some 332 medals or awards.[Official Report, 29 April 2004; Vol. 420, c. 1173W.]
	He promised to send me a complete list of the medals, which I have not yet received. I would love to see it. Until recently, the Army medal office issued medals from the Boer war to proven descendents of that conflict. It did a marvellous job in issuing the Queen's golden jubilee medal; to date, it has issued, again according to a parliamentary written answer from the Minister, more than 95,000 such medals.
	I met the Minister with the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Foster) to discuss the implications of the closure of the site. Many of its staff come from my constituency, from Worcester and from Wyre Forest. I am grateful to the Minister for the courtesy with which he heard our representations and the courteous letters that he has sent me subsequently. However, the warm words that he has offered do not reassure me. As he knows, I wrote to him again on 19 May, saying:
	I am very far from reassured. I urge you to re-think this policy and either to delay the closure of the Army Medal Office for three years and announce that as policy or, better still, to exploit its expertise and instead concentrate medal issuing at Droitwich rather than at Innsworth.
	I was particularly concerned to see that the investment appraisal assumed that only nine members of staff out of 55 or 60 at Droitwich would be transferred. The rest would be lost, with all their crucial expertise.
	All this comes out of a plan developed by the Government to harmonise the work of the Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency, which is based at four sitesGlasgow, Worthy Down, Centurion at Gosport and Innsworthinto three sites under a new joint personnel administration centre. As far as I know, the investment appraisal team responsible for that work has not visited the Army medal office in Droitwich Spa. Certainly, the consideration given to medals has been superficial, to say the least. Issuing medals is a very different and specialised operation, but I am afraid that that has not been properly considered. The experience needed and gained by staff is huge.
	It is also worth pointing outI say this as someone who married into a naval family, so it goes against the grain to admit itthat the RAF and the Navy often look to the Army medal office for guidance on medal-issuing procedures. Because of its history, the medal office has unique records for the Home Guard, from which I benefited during my visit there regarding my father's defence medal. The bullion room secures safely all the blank medals for all the armed forcesit is a very important secure facility. It is unthinkable that all that should be prejudiced by this ill-considered move.
	When I asked the Minister how many staff work in the various Army medal offices, he told me that there are 89 in total, of whom nearly two thirds55are at Droitwich; it is by far the biggest of the facilities. Extraordinarily, in a written answer of 20 May, the Minister told me that the closure of the Army medal office was
	part of a risk reduction strategy aimed at minimising disruption to medal service delivery.[Official Report, 25 May 2004; Vol. 421, c. 1613W.]
	I have to say that it is a risk maximisation strategy aimed at maximising disruption to medal service delivery. The Minister's phraseology was most bizarre.
	The issuing of the Iraq medal has now at last begun. It was badly delayed because of the uncertainty over the site. It would have been better had the staff employed to issue the Iraq medal been placed on a three-year fixed-term contract to take account of a closure period three years hence, but they had to be employed on a casual basis.
	That will really prejudice the issuing of that medal, but it has now begun, and the money for equipmentwhich was previously frozen, for reasons that I do not understandhas been made available. At last the Iraq medal is beginning to be issued, but too many veterans of the Iraq campaign will not wear their medals this Remembrance day, because of the uncertainty at Droitwich.
	The Suez medal is, quite reasonably, hugely popular, and there is a serious backlog. A staff member is quoted in the Soldier of May 2004 as saying:
	Let's face it, Suez veterans aren't getting any younger and we are involved in a race against time to get their medals out to them before they die. Scrapping the Army Medal Office is going to make that backlog much, much bigger and sadly a large number of people are going to miss out.
	The article also quotes
	Charles Golder, 76, who has fought for 50 years for the Suez Canal Zone medal,
	as saying:
	'Veterans, like me, just want to see our medals before we die and to be honest we are dropping like flies.'
	It is inevitable that the disruption caused by closure will mean that more veterans will drop like fliesto use that blunt phrasebefore they receive their medals.
	In another answer to me dated 21 May, the Minister said that one of the constraints in issuing the Suez canal medal was numbers of trained personnelyet he is planning to dismiss large numbers of the trained personnel who do this work. I shall quote again what I quoted in an earlier intervention. The Veterans Agency's website says about the Suez canal medal:
	Checking eligibility is a skilled, time-consuming and exacting job, but the medal offices have skilled staff who are experts at assessing eligibility quickly and accurately.
	Not for much longer, I am afraid.
	Time presses on, and I want to make sure that the Minister has a decent chance to respond to the debate, so I shall not quote at length all the cuttings that I looked up from provincial newspapers about Suez veterans who have received their medals, and the pride that they derived from receiving them. However, only yesterday in the Western Morning News we read the following:
	Veteran Mike Hardy, of Crediton in Devon, said some old soldiers were already dying before receiving their medals. 'It is very sad,' he said. 'In the last few months I know of four veterans who have died. People are already being told that they may have to wait three years for their medal and the disruption caused by the closure of the medal office
	those are his words, not mine
	is bound to add at least a year to that. There are a lot of West Country veterans still waiting, and you can imagine that in four or five years' time there will not be so many of us left. People feel very let down. Mr. Blair gave us hope last year, but we feel as if we are being fobbed off now. There is no political will and no resources being put into it.
	Indeed, the resources that are around are being squandered. In my hand I have the quotations from the other soldiers about their experiences during the Suez campaign, which show just how sad the reality is.
	It took a lot of work to get the investment appraisal for the plan out of the Government. Originally I received an answer on 12 May saying that the investment appraisal would be placed in the Library. In the understatement of all understatements it said that the document
	did not deal exclusively with the issue of the Army Medal Office.
	There was no sign of the investment appraisal, so on 20 May I asked another question and was told on 25 May that it had been placed in the Library on 20 May. I rang the Library on 1 June and was told that the investment appraisal was still not there. I first became aware of its actually having reached the Library on 7 June.
	The document is pretty disappointing, because it is not an investment appraisal about the Army medal office at all, but one
	for the future siting of AFPAA including JPAC.
	It mentions the four existing sites for AFPAA, but not the medal sites. The only reference to Droitwich that I can find in the document is in a footnote, as follows:
	As a supplement to this IA and to inform the consultations with TUs, a specific analysis was done of the option of forming a Joint Medals Office at Droitwich compared with it being formed at one of the AFPAA sitesthis option was highly unattractive on both business and cost grounds and has been discounted. (Reference [TBC once letter to TUs is finalised].
	In other words, that had not been done. The document was being written after the decision, and the facts were being made to fit the model, not the other way round. The published document actually says:
	TBC once letter to TUs is finalised.
	That is not very encouraging, and it is the only mention of Droitwich in the entire document.
	There is a hint about the timing, which we do not know much about. In the timetable, MedalsInnsworth appears under Early 05, Stage 2, which suggests that closure is scheduled for next spring, but we do not know. The document also says, bizarrely:
	Where possible, functions will co-locate at the site where the greatest concentration of staff currently exist.
	The greatest concentration of staff currently exists in Droitwich, but that is not where it will happen.
	The document contains a forecast of the number of staff required to issue medals in the United Kingdom. The figure is 74 staff for April 2004, but that is lower than the figure cited in the parliamentary answer that I received, so I do not understand the discrepancy. It is forecast that the number of staff required to cover all three services in April 2008 will be 34, but that does not fill me with much hope given the detailed and labour-intensive nature of the medal-issuing process.
	The section of the document on risk contains no mention of the risk that veterans might not receive their medals, which it should. The only significant mention of medals appears in annexe H under the heading Medals and Awards Administration. It says that an advantage of the proposal is that there will be:
	Reduced distance for the majority of staffs needing relocation.
	No, the proposal will increase distances for the majority of staff needing relocation. The appraisal says that the proposal reduces staff movement, but staff movement would increase because the Government are consulting on providing a bus service from Worcestershire to Gloucestershire for medal office staff. The document says that the proposal reduces business risk, but that is frankly an ugly turn of phrase to use about the issuing of medals to veterans. The proposal will increase business risk because it will put the operation on one site rather than four, so there will be more risk of disruption, not less.
	We find a clue in a separate side letter dated 18 March that was written by Peter Northen, DCE/Agency Secretary of the Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency. Crucially, the letter says on estate drivers:
	It is a key part of the Defence Estates strategy that the accommodation and estate held by the MOD should be rationalised  . . . DE advise that the Droitwich site has potential for high quality residential use were it to be disposed of by the MOD. The Investment Appraisal undertaken to support the establishment of JPAC on three of the four existing AFPAA sites assumes the disposal of the Droitwich site and an income of 3.9M from that disposal.
	I have some news for the Minister that he has not heard before: Droitwich has allocated all the housing land that it needs until 2011. The land in question is employment land, and special planning policy guidance is in force to protect such landunless, of course, the Deputy Prime Minister hears about it. The land is not available for high-quality residential development and would not fetch 3.9 million. In fact, the Chancellor might want to buy it for continued use by Customs and Excise, which also occupies the site.
	The Minister will make a serious error of judgment if he pursues the policy. I am delighted that he has made two visits to the national memorial arboretum, so will he please make one to Droitwichhe will do better than his officials if he does? He should not casually accept the bland assurances that he receives from his officials. Disruption would be inevitable and the proposed cost savings are illusory. The document that I cited regarding the value of the site makes the most pessimistic assumptions possible about the cost of remaining at the site and the most optimistic assumptions possible about the benefits of change. Pursuing the policy would not save costs; in fact, costs would increase due to additional redundancy and transport costs. Additional equipment would have to be bought and money would have to be spent on redecorating, re-equipping and so on, so the process would be a costly nightmare. Honouring our veterans and ensuring that they receive their medals on time is more important than blind loyalty to a superficial tri-service agenda and a study that would disgrace most management consultants.
	There is often the problem that Ministers have ideas that they want to pursue and officials think that they must ensure that they are delivered. It is like when Henry II said:
	Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest
	and the knights rode off and killed Thomas  Becketthe turbulent priest syndrome. The situation in government is often like that: Ministers have ideas, but their civil servants are too scared to challenge them, so they rush off to kill the archbishop instead of challenging Ministers' views or the prevailing wisdom in their Departments. I suspect that the Secretary of State, rather than the Minister for veterans, has said, Will no one deliver me a proper and effective tri-service agenda? The officials have said, Oh yes, we'll deliver it, and hang the consequences. However, the consequences are serious. Although the Minister for veterans will probably not have that responsibility when the scheme is implementedhe might have moved on or even be out of governmentI forecast that it will lead to serious delays in the issuing of medals.
	I make that forecast with absolute conviction.
	I end by citing one of the greatest parliamentarians. He was not always a great hero of mine because I come from the faithful city of Worcester, but in a letter to the General Assembly of the Kirk of Scotland in 1650, Cromwell wrote:
	I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.

Stephen Ladyman: I have seldom heard an hon. Friend likened to Henry II. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence assures me that he has no intention of killing any archbishops, although we looked at each other quizzically when the matter was raised because the thought occasionally crosses our minds about one or two.
	I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his introduction to our wide-ranging debate. He clearly set out the issues that are important to veterans, those who currently serve in the United Kingdom armed forces and their families. Praise was lavished on him not only by the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) but by several other hon. Members, including the hon. Members for Hereford (Mr. Keetch) and for Chipping Barnet (Sir Sydney Chapman). My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. Turner) appeared to want to organise a party in his honour, such is the quality of his work. Even the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) praised him. My hon. Friend is doing a marvellous job as the veterans Minister.
	The celebrations that my hon. Friend played such a big part in organising at the weekend were extremely successful. Praise was therefore well deserved. However, I noted that he celebrated the D-day landings by visiting not only Normandy but Monte Cassino, whereas I celebrated at Margate. I wonder why I got Margate and he got foreign travel; nevertheless, the weekend was incredibly successful.
	I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to wind up, because it is important to take the opportunity of the first debate of this type to spell out how the health and social care system is trying to meet veterans' needs. I was also parliamentary private secretary to the Minister for the armed forces for two years and I have therefore attended many defence debates, but this is the first time that I have been allowed to speak in one.
	Like my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and others who have spoken, I must start by acknowledging the huge debt that we owe those veterans who served in the second world war and did so much to secure the freedoms that we enjoy today. If they had not done what they did, would we be here today, debating in a free Parliament or casting our votes tomorrow in free elections? I doubt it.
	Like my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for New Forest, East, I was moved by the accounts in the media over the weekend of the personal experiences of those who took part in the campaigns at Monte Cassino and the D-day landings in Normandy. I was especially struck by the accounts of the children and grandchildren of veterans, including those from the United States of America. Although my trip was not perhaps as exotic as those that my hon. Friend went on, I was proud to stand with veterans at the D-day celebrations in Margate on Sunday and to hear at first hand their accounts of that miraculous day. I asked one elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, whose breathing was assisted by oxygen and who had been there on the day, Can you remember what it was like? He replied, Like it was yesterday. The events are as fresh as yesterday in many veterans' minds, so amazing and momentous was the day.
	I was struck by how much has changed for those concerned with health issues in the 60 years since D-day. I delighted to say that there has been unprecedented growth in health and social care services. Back then, health and care services focused largely on veterans' physical needs but at least we are now prepared to acknowledge the psychological impact of conflict on mental health and social functioning. We all need to apply better understanding of the wider impact of conflict and of the difficulties that people face simply in making the transition from service life to civilian life to ensure that we do better for veterans in the future than we have done in the past.
	Happily, we are now much better prepared to support those who live with the mental and physical consequences of the trauma that conflict brings and, although we still have much further to go, I believe that individuals themselves are now more prepared to come forward and seek help. We have made progress, but we are still a long way from perfection, and I suspect that I am not unusual as a Member of Parliament in having on my books several veterans who have found themselves in my MP's surgery because of health problems or difficulties with adjustment. Some saw action, and some did not, but all have found transition difficult and need multi-agency support. To a greater or lesser extent, all have encountered difficulty in getting that support, and we must learn from their experiences and do better in future.
	We must do better for the veterans whom we celebrated at the weekend and all the veterans of the last century's world wars, better for the veterans of Korea and Suez, and better for the veterans of Northern Ireland and all the other conflicts of our generation. We must also do better for the young men and women serving today in Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. I am therefore especially pleased to be able to draw to the House's attention the work that we are doing in partnership with colleagues in the Ministry of Defence to support people with a history of service in the armed forces.
	I know from conversations that I have had with my constituents how difficult it can be to re-engage with ordinary life after leaving the armed forces, and how much more difficult that must be if a person is vulnerable, stressed or suffering from a mental illness, however short term. That is why our Departments will be working together to build on the support that the Ministry of Defence already provides. We will ensure that those leaving the services have information especially configured to their needs, and we shall look to the veterans' associations to help us with this and to provide us with advice. Above all, we shall look to the veterans and members of the services themselves to tell us what they need and how we can improve.
	I do not want to second-guess what this guidance should contain, but I do know that it should be practical, relevant and focused on the basics as well as on some of those issues that we know are the most difficult to handle. It should cover subjects such as how to register with a general practitioner, what questions a person should ask if they need counselling or a psychological therapy, where they can get further information or a specialised assessment, and what to do if the services they need are not being provided.
	Of course, health services for veterans do not stand alone. In this country, we have a national health servicein my view, a truly great concept and a great organisationthat provides quality care to all, free at the point of need. Its existence is the reason that we do not need a separate veterans service, as some countries do. I think that the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) also came to that conclusion when he was serving in the previous Conservative Government. So when we drive up standards in the national health service, as we are, and when we take on more doctors and nurses, cut waiting times and improve services, as we have been doing, we improve services for everyone as well as for veterans. It is in that context that we must view the work that we are doing to improve, reform and modernise mental health services, and to reduce the stigma associated with mental illness.
	Mental ill health goes hand in hand with social exclusion, and it features at every level of our society. It blights the workplace, with about one in five workersaround 5 million peoplereporting symptoms of stress. It is also the leading cause of sickness absence, and restricts people in their capacity to live productive lives. It should therefore come as no surprise to us that members of the armed forces suffer from mental ill health just like the rest of us, in service and after service. We need to accept that and to help.
	Much is said about the macho culture in the armed forces, but we know that young men, whatever their backgrounds, find it difficult to ask for help for social and emotional difficulties. That is a particularly worrying observation, given that young men are one of the leading risk groups for death by suicide. We must therefore tackle mental ill health with as much vigour as we tackle physical ill health, and we must drive up standards not only in health care but in social care. As well as driving up standards generally, we need to keep a special focus on the particular challenges that face veterans.
	I should like to turn to some of the points raised by hon. Members today, and I shall begin with the hon. Member for New Forest, East, who correctly stated that tributes are important. I entirely agree with him on that.
	He also rightly pointed out that they are important not just to those who remember these events, but to young people, our children and our grandchildren in establishing the respect that we ought to have for the freedoms that we have in this country. They will become fragile if we ever take our eye off the ball and forget to protect them.
	Tributes are important, but I say to the hon. Gentleman, who seems to have made up his mind that celebrations of D-day need to continue almost annually, that some veterans I was talking to on Sunday said that this should be the last, as they do not want the celebrations to peter out and fade away.

Julian Lewis: I thank the Minister for giving way and I am sorry if I was not sufficiently clear. I was commending what General Jackson said, which is that so long as there are groups that wish to continue the celebrations, the Army and the other services should continue to support them.

Stephen Ladyman: I think that is right, and it is why my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow) said that we must keep an open mind and engage in discussions with veterans. That is very much the position of my hon. Friend the veterans Minister. We should make the decisions with veterans, not for them. That is important.
	I want to chide the hon. Member for New Forest, East a little, however. He mentioned several times the need to get the balance right on a number of issues. He spoke for 56 minutes, and very good his speech was too. I very much enjoyed it and it was very eloquent, but he was 39 minutes in before he got to the nitty-gritty of how to improve services for veterans or mentioned any of the issues that affect their lives today, other than the issue of medals and the Chinook issue, which I accept are important. Indeed, he spent longer on his paean of praise for President Reagan than on pensions for veterans.
	I criticise the hon. Gentleman gently, but no more than that. Where I will not be gentle in my criticism, though, is in respect of the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), who alone today gave what I have to say was a rather mealy-mouthed speech. I understand that it is easy for the third party in British politics to climb on every bandwagon and to support every campaign that comes along, but simplistic answers to complicated problems get us nowhere. At least he could have recognised the fact that some issues that he raised are complicated matters of judgment. People do not find it easy to make these decisions, so for him simply to say that he supports every campaign that comes along did him and his cause no justice at all.
	The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Arctic convoys, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. McWilliam), who has campaigned on the Arctic convoy medal for a long time; the hon. Member for New Forest, East; my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing); and the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet. I shall not add to what my hon. Friend the Minister for veterans said, as this is not an issue on which the House particularly wants to hear the views of a Health Minister, but let me say here and now that no Labour Member doubts the bravery of or the contribution made by those men.
	I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby that I was brought up in Liverpool as well, although I was not born until 1952. Even I, as a child, was told about the change that happened when the red army started to advance and the benefits that that delivered for Merseyside, so nobody needs to tell me what contribution those brave people made.
	The hon. Member for Portsmouth, South raised a number of housing issues. I shall return to some of those, but he said that surplus housing was available that was not committed to the Annington Homes scheme. That is not the case. I understand that any surplus housing identified by the MOD has to be released to Annington Homes.

Mike Hancock: Will the Minister give way?

Stephen Ladyman: I would rather not as, unfortunately, I have only six minutes in which to speak. My hon. Friend the Minister for veterans is dealing with that issue and I know he will have listened to the hon. Gentleman's comments.
	The hon. Member for New Forest, East also raised the possibility of pre-screening recruits for predisposition to mental health problems. That has been considered, primarily in other countries, and has never been found to be particularly satisfactory. The insensitivity of the screening processes is the issue, although, obviously, those with a severe or current mental illness or learning disability would be excluded. It is right, however, for training and preparation of those going into combat to include coverage of the psycho-social aspects of health as well as physical issues.
	On limiting traumatic stress-related disorders on deployments, measures are in place to help to reduce the risk of such disorders occurring among service personnel. Those preventive arrangements for the armed forces have been developed over a number of years, and will continue to be reviewed in the light of developments in the field of stress management and medical treatment.
	The hon. Member for Portsmouth, South raised the issue of Alexander Izett and Gulf war syndrome. I am sure that he will know that I am not in a position to comment on the treatment that Mr. Izett is receiving. That is a matter between him and his doctor. I strongly encourage him to give up his hunger strike, however, as I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has done, as it will not benefit anybody. He is currently resident in Germany. Were he living in the UK, however, as a war pensioner, he would be entitled to priority national health service assessment and treatment for any condition to which his pension was related. Nothing that he or any other veteran of the Gulf war has presented with is beyond the capability of the national health service.
	It is important that we gather robust evidence concerning the health needs of our veterans. The MOD is spending 8.5 million on research on Gulf war syndrome and the issues concerned. That research is being directed by independent medical experts. The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet raised a number of possible factors: vaccines, pesticides and oil fires. That points to the need to do proper research rather than to jump to conclusions.
	The hon. Member for Chipping Barnet also raised a number of other issues. He welcomed lapel badges for veterans, and said how positive they would be. I share that view. He was the first Member to mention today's service people in the debate. One or two of us have forgotten today's service people. That point was also picked up by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble, who joined in the call for services for tomorrow's veterans also to be improved.
	The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) raised his concerns about the Armed Forces (Pensions and Compensation) Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence has engaged in argument with him on the matter, and it will now go to the House of Lords. There is nothing that I can add that will satisfy him, and I am sure that we will return to the debate in the future.
	Other Members made moving speeches, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). The hon. Member for Salisbury also made a careful and considered speech.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) raised the issue of privatisation of the records office in his constituency. That is a matter on which I am unsighted, so I cannot satisfy him on it today. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence has agreed to read his comments, however, and to respond to him.
	The hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) raised the issue of the Droitwich Army medal office. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary assured the House that the backlog for Suez medals will be cleared in two years. I know, however, as I am the Minister who deals with health service issues for Mid-Worcestershire, that when the hon. Gentleman gets a bone in his teeth, he will not let it go. I therefore suspect that my hon. Friend will be hearing more from him in the weeks to come.
	The issue of homelessness shows how dealing with services for veterans needs a multi-agency approach. It is therefore important that we build the needs of veterans into the new vision for adult social care, which we are developing. My hon. Friend and I will work together to ensure that the views of veterans are built into that new vision, and that services for future veterans reflect the contribution
	It being Seven o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

PETITIONS
	  
	Post Offices

Tom Cox: I wish to present a petition from constituents expressing deep concern about the Post Office's proposals to close four post offices in the Tooting area of the London borough of Wandsworth. I fully support their opposition. The concern exists because the closures follow closures that took place last year. As we all know, such closures inevitably affect local communitiespeople of all ages who use and greatly value a key public service. They also have a real effect on businesses that regularly use the services provided by local post offices.
	The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons calls on her Majesty's government to halt any further closure of such Post Office branches until there is a full review of the effect such closures have on a community.
	To lie upon the Table.

Teachers

Claire Curtis-Thomas: I present my petition on behalf of 30,000 teachers who are members of the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers.
	The petition of members and supporters of the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers' campaign regarding false allegations against teachers.
	Declares that teachers are vulnerable to allegations of physical, verbal and sexual abuse of pupils. Owing to the wide publicity given to these cases, pupils are aware that such allegations can cost teachers their jobs. Regrettably, some pupils have no compunction in seeking to falsely and maliciously accuse a teacher they dislike or to threaten such an allegation.
	In recent years there have been 1,782 police investigations into allegations of criminal abuse made against NASUWT members. In a staggering 1,686 of these no grounds have been discovered for prosecution. The majority of the allegations are false, unfounded, exaggerated or malicious.
	There appears to be a widely held public view that an allegation in itself is proof of guilt. Cases under investigation are often leaked to the press leading to local and sometimes national media coverage. Once publicity has occurred, even after the teacher has been cleared, dismissal or inability to return to work is frequently the outcome.
	The publicity also adversely affects not only the teacher but also their families. They face unimaginable levels of stress and anxiety. Their children face problems in their own school and their partners in the workplace and community.
	NASUWT members have committed or attempted suicide because of the allegations and/or press coverage.
	The media frenzy which identifies a teacher rarely gives the same prominence to the teacher's exoneration.
	The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons should introduce legislation to secure the right of anonymity of teachers accused of sexual abuse up to the decision in a court. This would provide a measure of protection to a vulnerable profession and go some way to ensure that the lives and careers of innocent teachers are not ruined.
	And the petitioners remain, etc.
	To lie upon the Table.

PLANNING SERVICES (HILLINGDON)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.[Vernon Coaker.]

John McDonnell: In 2002, the Government introduced a planning delivery grant to improve the performance of local authority planning departments. The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister provided additional grant aid to reward improved planning performance by local councils. The idea was that that grant would serve as an incentive to local councils to deliver speedier and better-quality planning decisions, thus assisting regeneration, inward investment, economic growth and environmental protection.
	My constituency is in the London borough of Hillingdon, so I was pleased that, in 2002, the Government awarded planning delivery grant to the council. So far, the borough has received from the Government over 0.5 million in planning grant on the ground of its improved performance. However, at the time, even I in my role as the local MP felt that the Government's decision to reward Hillingdon for its efficient planning performance did not match the anecdotal evidence reported to me by my constituents, or my experience with my constituency case load. Similar but more forthright scepticism about the performance standards was felt by several local councillors, who had a more intimate knowledge of the operation of the borough's planning department.
	Local Labour councillors, who comprise the opposition to the current Conservative administration, properly sought to question the performance standards of the council's planning department. At the first meeting of the relevant scrutiny committee, Labour councillors asked for the operation of the planning department to be scrutinised by the committee according to the terms of reference and role of the committee. That was surprisingly refused by the Conservative and Liberal Democrat majority of councillors on the committee.
	In December 2002, a comprehensive performance assessment report published by the Audit Commission classed the performance of the London borough of Hillingdon as fair overall, but the planning and environmental services scored the lowest possible performance rating of one out of four. Consequently, in January 2003, Labour Councillor Janet Duncan promoted a motion to full council calling for all-party support to address how to improve the performance of those services. That was met, surprisingly, by vituperative opposition by the lead cabinet member for planning, Councillor Mike Heywood, and the leader of the council.
	In a heated personal attack on Councillor Duncan, Councillor Heywood argued that the statistics upon which the Audit Commission made its judgment were out of datein fact, there had been a dramatic improvement in the turnaround of planning applications, from 49 per cent. to 69 per cent., in an extremely limited period. Councillor Duncan, who is a former deputy director of planning, knew from experience that that scale of improvement in so limited a period appeared unrealistic and was open to question.
	For that reason, Councillor Duncan sought clarification by contacting the Government office for London. She expressed concern at the accuracy of the Hillingdon performance figures. As a result, the Government office for London contacted Hillingdon council's chief executive, Mr. Dorian Leatham. Despite the potential seriousness of the issue, the chief executive failed to launch any independent formal investigation. Councillor Duncan was excluded by the council from meetings between the council and the Government office for London.
	Eventually, only a meeting with the director of planning, the head of service, Ms Jean Palmer, was afforded to Councillor Duncan. At that meeting, Ms Palmer assured Councillor Duncan and a fellow councillor that the council's planning department performance statistics upon which Government grant was awarded were accurate. In 2003, at Hillingdon cabinet meetings, questions were raised yet again on at least two separate occasions as to whether Hillingdon's figures were accurate, and on both occasions the leader of the council and the lead cabinet member confirmed that the figures were correct.
	The significance of those statistics is that they are the basis upon which the returns to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister were completed, and the Government's planning delivery grant was awarded. To verify those assertions of the accuracy of the council's planning performance statistics, Labour councillors examined the detail of a sample of planning applications. The council uses a system called Ocella, a computerised planning system that councillors and the general public can interrogate, as all planning records are in the public domain.
	Examination of the individual planning applications produced startling results, raising some serious questions.
	Let me explain. The bureaucratic processing of a planning application involves the logging of the date of receipt, with any relevant information; the allocation of the application to a case officer; the writing up of the report; and the passing of the report to a planning manager for approval. A decision is then taken by the planning manager under delegated authority, or the report is referred to the planning committee for decision.
	The Government's performance target is to seek to ensure that councils consider and decide on an application, and dispatch the decision to the applicant, within an eight-week time frame. Performance is measured in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister from the date the application is received to the date when the decision is dispatched. Examination of the planning documents revealed, first, that the improper date was used for the calculation of the necessary returns to the ODPM. That is, the date of the decision was used rather than the date of dispatch of the decision. This was a conscious decision taken by the senior management team in the planning department, as evidenced by a memorandum circulated within the team, including to the director, by the head of service. I pass that memorandum to my right hon. Friend the Minister to enable him to inspect the accuracy of my allegation.
	Secondly, dates on reports on which the ODPM returns were based, in order to gain additional grant, had been changed on report records. They were altered or crudely scribbled over to improve performance against targets.
	Thirdly, reports have been backdated for signing, although recorded considerably later on the Ocella computer system. Again, I pass to my right hon. Friend examples of crude alterations to the records of the progress of planning applications.
	It is understood that staff raised their concerns about the backdating with managers but were concerned for their own careers. It has been reported that a climate of fear and bullying reigned in the planning department and indeed in the authority overall. It is believed that staff were treated aggressively by senior management to ensure that records reflected improved performance rates. Staff raising concerns were soon isolated, and many simply left. The planning department is now increasingly run with agency staff, to great cost.
	The use of the improper date was not just a mistake or a failure by a junior member of staff. The management memo demonstrates that it was used with the clear understanding and agreement of senior management.
	From all the evidence, it appears that a number of devices were used to fix the department's performance statistics in order to qualify for Government grant and to cover up the drastic failure of the London borough of Hillingdon's planning department to perform, to serve its community and to serve my constituents. Many were concerned that its actions, by any standards, were fraudulent. Although the evidence of the devices used is shocking, what is even more alarming are the lengths to which some in the authority went to prevent any proper and effective scrutiny of the questions raised about the accuracy of the Government's performance statistics.
	Councillors were denied access to information. For example, my right hon. Friend the Minister wrote to the council back in July 2003, enclosing an independent consultant's report on Hillingdon's planning service commissioned by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. It showed serious concerns about the operation of the department, but it was withheld from Labour councillors for several months, contrary to the code of conduct on access to information. Eventually, Labour councillors received only part of the report on the evening of the sitting of the scrutiny committee due to examine it. Labour members were so concerned at the withholding of this important document that a motion of censure was submitted to a full council meetingit was defeated by the Conservative and Liberal Democrat majority.
	Councillor Duncan faced intimidation and threats from Conservative councillors that she would be reported to the standards committee. She was also barred from attending meetings between the council and the Government Office for London to discuss the department's planning performance. I pay tribute to her for having the guts and determination to pursue the search for truth in this matter. She is a true and very brave whistleblower.
	The council's chief executive failed to undertake any serious investigation of the concerns expressed by councillors. Farcically, he appointed the director of planning, the head of service, herself to investigate the performance and probity of her own department.
	There is no evidence that they called upon the services of the internal audit or interrogated the anti-fraud computer systems. Only when the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister launched its own investigations with the district auditor did the director, or head of service, admit that her performance statistics were based on the use of improper dates. That then revealed a massive drop in real performance standards, from 68 to 24 per cent.
	In recent weeks, the lead cabinet member on planning and the chief executive have even sought legal advice from counsel to prevent present and former staff from being interviewed by the district auditor. It has been evidenced that a member of staff involved in the auditing of the performance statistics was offered a tax-free lump sum to leave the employment of the local authority immediately. Amazingly, the documentation provided to the district auditor was prepared by the director of planning, the head of service, herself; unremarkably, it is incomplete.
	The information on the process of planning applications was placed on the UK planning website in 2003. HoweverI have to say, suspiciouslyall such evidence that could have identified tampering has been removed from the website. When staff have left the planning department, the central information technology department of the council, which operates under the line management of the chief executive, has ensured that the computers have been wiped clean, removing records and e-mails. That may be standard practice in a local authority, but one would expect, at a time when an investigation is under way, that the chief executive would be meticulous in ensuring the preservation of all records and other potentially relevant materials. However, the practice that has been undertaken in this case is leading some to believe that evidence is apparently being systematically destroyed to cover up what is increasingly viewed as a potential major council scandal.
	Let me make it clear that I believe that the leader of the council is basically an honest man. I have worked with him, and I am aware of his integrity. However, I do not believe that he or the council, or my constituents, have been well served by his colleagues and by the senior officers of the council, in particular the chief executive and the director of planning, the head of service. It is beyond belief that when serious concerns about the probity of the council's planning department were raised, not only did the relevant lead member and the chief executive fail to take appropriate action properly to investigate those concerns; they appear to have sought to use every mechanism possible to prevent access to information and to frustrate independent scrutiny and the maintenance of the high standards of openness, accountability and probity required of elected representatives and public servants.
	I am grateful for the conscientious, diligent approach that my right hon. Friend the Minister has taken in giving his attention to this matter, but I now ask what action should be taken from here on. Certainly, the elected councillors of the London borough of Hillingdon need to act decisively to address these issues. I urge that a new cross-party coalition take control of the council, to work co-operatively to see it through this difficult period and to manage the reforms needed to bring about an effective administration. I call on local councillors of all political parties to form a coalition of the clean to take control of the council and to resolve these problems. I ask the Minister to consider whether it is time for the Government to send in independent administrators, at least to administer the planning department and to provide advice on the establishment of effective procedures and systems to ensure accountability and probity.
	An additional question is now becoming inescapable: should a criminal investigation be launched? Although the district auditor is investigating the London borough of Hillingdon, I believe that the resources of the police, who have skills and powers of investigation that might be appropriate to this type of case, may be required.
	I hold this matter to be extremely serious, not just for my local authority and community but for the standing of local government overall. Anything that diminishes the confidence and respect that people have for local democracy undermines democracy itself. Tomorrow, people will go out to vote. They will vote for elected councillors across the country to serve their local communities. They will expect those councillors to uphold the highest standards of honesty and probity. They will expect to be served by council officials who uphold the same standards. That is what local democracy is all about, and that is what needs to happen now in the London borough of Hillingdon. I gave more than 20 years of my life to serve in local government, and I will not stand by while others damage its reputation and standing, and in that way undermine democracy itself.

Keith Hill: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for providing the opportunity to discuss Hillingdon's planning performance. He has set out very clearly some of the problems facing Hillingdon, and I am delighted to have this chance to explain how the Government are tackling poor performance and supporting improvement by local planning authorities across the country, and in particular to explain where Hillingdon is in this process.
	As part of the best value process, the development control performance of planning authorities is assessed using three measures: the percentage of major planning applications dealt with in 13 weeks; the percentage of minor applications dealt with in eight weeks; and the percentage of other applications dealt with in eight weeks. Hillingdon has shown a consistent underperformance according to all three best value planning indicators since 200001, and it is on that basis that it has been designated a standards authority in three consecutive years. It is one of six authorities nationally with which my Department has actively engaged because of poor performance.
	As a result of Hillingdon's designation as a standards authority in 200304, my Department appointed consultants to examine its performance. Their remit was to review and assess the actions taken by Hillingdon since it was inspected during the previous year by consultants from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. We wanted to know what progress the authority was making in improving its performance, particularly in terms of working towards the ODPM's national targets for handling planning applications. The consultants were also asked to identify the barriers to further performance improvement and the priorities that Hillingdon needed to address.
	The consultants will be reporting shortly on their inspection of the authority's planning service. The report is confidential between the ODPM and Hillingdon, but the borough has had the opportunity to comment on a draft. Hillingdon is responding to the consultants' work by reviewing its improvement plan to ensure that it properly addresses the problems that the consultants are identifying. We will be monitoring progress very carefully through the Government office for London.
	Why is Hillingdon facing such problems in improving performance? There are a number of reasons, including the need to upgrade IT systems, to improve internal guidance on handling planning applications and to simplify process, along with a difficulty in recruiting and retaining permanent planning staff. Other authorities are facing similar problems, and they are managing to overcome them and to make progress through good management and a clear, strong focus on performance improvement. We will, as I have said, be monitoring Hillingdon's performance closely. If we do not see the improvements that are needed, we will consider what further action might be needed to intervene more directly.
	My hon. Friend made a serious allegation about the way in which Hillingdon has been recording and submitting statistics on planning performance to the ODPM. May I say how seriously I, too, regard these allegations? He first came to see me before Christmas to draw these matters to my attention, and he left a number of papers relating to these allegations. My officials immediately passed those papers to the Audit Commission and asked it to investigate as a matter of urgency.
	I understand that, as a result of these allegations coming to light and of the district auditor's inquiry, Hillingdon set up an internal inquiry to look at the specific allegations, and it appointed an external consultant to look more widely at its systems. These investigations revealed that the council had systematically been returning incorrect data on its development control performance to the ODPM. It had been recording the end-date for handling a planning application as the date on which the council made its decision, rather than as the date of dispatch of the decision to the applicant, which might be some time later. My hon. Friend has alluded to these practices. The correct procedure for recording these decisions is clearly set out in the forms through which local authorities have to make their returns. The result of these practices was to make Hillingdon's performance appear better than it actually was.
	This audit and related concerns about the misreporting are being externally reviewed as part of the district auditor's investigation. In the course of these investigations, my hon. Friend passed me a copy of an internal Hillingdon communication that was highly relevant to the inquiries. My officials immediately passed it to the district auditor.
	I understand that the district auditor has received the council's report of its own investigation into how it has reported its development control performance. He has undertaken his own testing of the council's development control records and is undertaking interviews with a number of officers and former officers.
	I further understand that the district auditor aims to complete his inquiries this month and to report as soon as possible thereafter. We are pressing him to do so as a matter of urgency, but I do understand that, if he were to find fault with any individual, he would need to give the person concerned the opportunity to comment on his findings and that may have an effect on the exact timing of his report.
	The district auditor is the appointed official who has responsibility for investigating allegations of this nature. He has the powers that he needs to carry out a thorough examination. The remedies open to him vary, depending on the seriousness of his findings. He can report his conclusions to the council, setting out the issues and what action is needed to secure improvements. If he considers the situation sufficiently serious, he can make a public interest report. Such a report would be in the public domain. The council would be required to consider and respond to it formally and it would have to advertise the meeting at which the report was considered and publish its response.
	Obviously, misreported figures could affect the planning delivery grant, which is partly based on development control performance. Hillingdon received a planning delivery grant of 223,586 for 200405. Planning delivery grant was allocated mainly on the basis of the council's performance in development controldealing with planning applicationsand development plan making, along with an allocation for meeting demand to supply housing in the south-east growth area.
	Hillingdon's grant was the lowest of the London boroughs. We received the corrections to Hillingdon's development control returns in time to enable the corrected versions to be taken fully into account in calculating the grant to be paid for 200405. Had that not been the case, we would have had to take action to seek repayment of grant paid in respect of incorrect figures.
	In order to reduce the risk of similar problems in future, the ODPM has collaborated with the Audit Commission in preparing new and clearer guidance to auditors about the checks that they should be making and the things that they should be looking out for in auditing the arrangements for recording planning performance.
	In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I once again thank my hon. Friend for raising this important topic? I think that what I have said underlines the seriousness with which I personally and the Government take this matter. We are working constructively with many local planning authorities up and down the land to promote and drive improvements in performance. Hillingdon is one of a handful of authorities where we are closely engaged in monitoring performance.
	These allegations of manipulation of the planning statistics, which the district auditor is investigating, render the situation more serious still. I cannot pre-empt the findings of his inquiry, but I can reassure the House that we will take any published findings into account in charting our future engagement with the local planning authority and deciding what steps need to be taken.
	Question put and agreed to.
	Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes past Seven o'clock.